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riots in paris banlieu...

TeeJay said:
Well go and have a look at international figures compiled by the International Labour Organisation (a UN body).

They confirm that France has far higher unemployment compared with the UK.
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I am well aware that France has a higher unemployment rate than Britain even taking into account the way Britain falsifies the data.
 
Col_Buendia said:
Guardian

So, does that mean they support people who take action that strikes clear-sightedly at property, or is this just another example of religion coming to the aid of property rights?
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No, I rather think this is French Muslims thinking 'Fuck, Le Pen and the facists are going to kick off on us if we don't say something condemning this activity by many of our young men'
 
sihhi said:
TeeJay your article doesn't work- can you C+P the worthwhile parts of it.
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Here's the whole thing:

IT IS early on a Friday, and the job-centre on the Rue Damrémont, on the northern fringes of Paris, is humming. Job-hunters browse offers pinned to the wall; others search on the internet. Massou, leafing through a folder of ads, has been looking for kitchen work—cleaning or dishwashing—for eight months. Previous jobs, as a security guard and at a printing works, were short-term only. “I've sent 20 CVs, but nobody has called me for an interview,” he says. Faker, 29, is also looking for restaurant work, but says most ads are for part-time or temporary jobs. Even for those, he has had no offers in two months. “When I ring, they say the job has gone.”

After dipping to 8.3% in 2001, unemployment in France has since been creeping relentlessly up. It hit 10.1% in January, well above the pre-enlargement EU average of 8.1%, and over twice Britain's 4.8%. For under 25s, unemployment is now over 22% (see chart). Worries about jobs, especially among the young, underlie much of the dislike of President Jacques Chirac's government, which faces a testing referendum on the draft EU constitution on May 29th. A new back-to-work plan is being implemented. But will it be enough?

The government has at least grasped the importance of the problem. Jean-Pierre Raffarin, the prime minister, has promised to trim unemployment by 10%. Jean-Louis Borloo, minister for social cohesion and former mayor of the industrial town of Valenciennes, has pushed through a new law to revamp welfare and job schemes. Much of it is sensible and overdue. The public job-placement agency, ANPE, will face competition for the first time: at present, the private sector can offer only temping. New maisons de l'emploi (job-centres), loosely modelled on the British variety, will bring together recruitment, benefit and welfare services. By 2009, the number of apprenticeships will be increased by nearly 40%, to 500,000 a year. Over the next five years, a million people on welfare will be offered training and subsidised jobs. New fiscal incentives should help to create 500,000 domestic-service jobs over three years. The idea, says Mr Borloo, is to deal with labour-market “dysfunction”, and so reduce structural unemployment.

Implementing all this, however, is particularly complicated in France. The government does not run unemployment insurance. This job falls to Unedic, which is co-managed by employers and workers, who jointly set rules on entitlements, based on personal contributions. These are hugely generous: the top monthly allocation, dictated by previous pay, can be as high as €5,700 ($7,420), against £243 ($466) in Britain. Meanwhile the government finances welfare for those without insurance rights, as well as job-placement. The upshot is fragmented, and inefficient.

Getting the various agencies to work together is hard. Unedic and ANPE are currently squabbling over how to police benefit claims. Jean-Pierre Revoil, head of Unedic, told La Tribune this week that France had developed a “welfare culture” that needed tighter controls. In the new job-centres, it is unclear who will patrol the take-up of the new work schemes—or how tough they should be. “The system is voluntary,” says Mr Borloo, who argues that abuse is exaggerated. “We are not looking at suspension of benefits.”

Why does the government need such ambitious job schemes in the first place? Employment policies already cost €70 billion a year, yet they have done little to dent unemployment. Nor, Mr Raffarin has conceded, is it likely to shrink much before next year. The harsh answer is that the welfare system is not the real problem.

Economic growth in France is job-poor. In effect, the French pay a price for the protections—a high minimum wage, security from lay-offs, a short work-week—that those in permanent full-time work enjoy. In labour-intensive sectors, France has become highly automated, and many new jobs are temporary. A Unedic survey shows that around one-third of the jobs employers expect to create in 2005 will be short-term. This introduces flexibility, but it also creates a two-tier system: comfortable, sheltered jobs for some; precarious, temporary ones for others.

Young job-seekers tend most often to be excluded—hence their anxiety. Asked on television last week why Britain's unemployment was so much lower, Mr Chirac replied that its social rules would be “unacceptable” in France. In the Rue Damrémont, that falls flat: what is unacceptable is not being able to find a job.
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http://www.economist.com/background/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3896305
 
Giles said:
I think the French should use the CRS or their army to stomp on this before it gets any worse. These people are scum, and they are mainly destroying their own communities.
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You are Nicolas Sarkosy and I claim my £5.
 
Giles said:
I think the French should use the CRS or their army to stomp on this before it gets any worse. These people are scum, and they are mainly destroying their own communities.

Giles..
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*bangs head on desk*

personally i think they're idiots, not taking the violence out of the estates and ghettos. they're only letting themselves down. but at the same time, they probably don't want revolution, they just want their home country to recognise that they live in hovels and get treated like shit. burn the estates to the ground and maybe when they get rebuilt they might actually be fit for human habitation.
 
If they started torching rich areas the CRS and Army will be on the streets, probably armed with live amunition. Not to mention the pockets of Le Pen supporters who would use it as an excuse to start racist attacks on a huge scale.

Altho I agree - it's the same as the LA riots. Why trash your own neighbourhoods?
 
Giles said:
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the original riot over the 2 blokes who got electrocuted in the electricity substation, all these copycat rioters have no excuse - they are just hooligans smashing up their neighbours property, burning buses, schools, doctors surgeries, stuff that their families and community need to use.

For what?
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The resignation of the french minister who has referred to these young people (as have you) as "hooligans" and "scum".

Playing to the gallery by name calling is not going to solve the problem is it?
 
He actually called them 'rabble' not 'scum', but hey let's not let accurate reporting get in the way of what people wanted him to say.
 
Giles said:
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the original riot over the 2 blokes who got electrocuted in the electricity substation, all these copycat rioters have no excuse - they are just hooligans smashing up their neighbours property, burning buses, schools, doctors surgeries, stuff that their families and community need to use.

For what?
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So you've definitely ruled out the possibility that some of the more wanton acts of destruction may have been the work of agent provocateurs, have you?

This all looks like a deliberately orchestrated set up to me. A trap set for the immigrant youth by right elements in the ruling party led by Sarkosy. A scheme that at the same time taps into the pools of French racism kept stirred by Le Penn and co. The French Right is on the move, it needs an "enemy within" - hence the provoked conflict against the immigrant community.
 
So of course, living in shitty accomodation, being harrassed by the police constantly, having virtually no chance of getting anything more than an insecure manual job as well as being looked down on by a large chunk of the population and pretty much ignored and shut away in ghettos doesn't give these people a reason for rioting?

But no - poor people can't get pissed off and riot, they need the Evil State to kick their arses into doing it.

Jesus Bigfish, not only is your post the usual conspiraloon bollocks it's also immensely insulting to say that people who live in shit conditions are incapable of an uprising of any kind without being goaded into it.

I can just imagine you're response to an uprising in the favelas would be 'Brazilain governmen and Secret Police collude to provoke...'
 
bigfish said:
So you've definitely ruled out the possibility that some of the more wanton acts of destruction may have been the work of agent provocateurs, have you?

This all looks like a deliberately orchestrated set up to me. A trap set for the immigrant youth by right elements in the ruling party led by Sarkosy. A scheme that at the same time taps into the pools of French racism kept stirred by Le Penn and co. The French Right is on the move, it needs an "enemy within" - hence the provoked conflict against the immigrant community.
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Hmm, naah...
I don't see why they'd bother- there's plenty of racism in France already, no need for anything to stir any extra up.
It's not doing Sarko any good at all- no matter how hard the government coem down on this now, they've blown it- if they'd orchestrated it it would have been bloody and short, now they look like they're losing control, which could never have been part of the plan...
 
Sue said:
I'm interested to hear exactly why you think 'these people are scum'.

Though I do agree with your second point -- probably be much more effective if they burnt cars in the 16th or wherever.... :rolleyes:
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or neuilly sur seine, across the ring motorway, the political base of Sarkozy.
 
bigfish said:
So you've definitely ruled out the possibility that some of the more wanton acts of destruction may have been the work of agent provocateurs, have you?

This all looks like a deliberately orchestrated set up to me. A trap set for the immigrant youth by right elements in the ruling party led by Sarkosy. A scheme that at the same time taps into the pools of French racism kept stirred by Le Penn and co. The French Right is on the move, it needs an "enemy within" - hence the provoked conflict against the immigrant community.
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there is no need for conspiracy theories here. it's been brewing for a long time and sarkozy choice of words did not help.
 
bluestreak said:
*bangs head on desk*

personally i think they're idiots, not taking the violence out of the estates and ghettos. they're only letting themselves down. but at the same time, they probably don't want revolution, they just want their home country to recognise that they live in hovels and get treated like shit. burn the estates to the ground and maybe when they get rebuilt they might actually be fit for human habitation.
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the estates aren't that bad, they're all post war at the very least, usually sixties or seventies. now you want to see certain parts of central paris where they still have lead pipes and the health damage it does to kids.
 
Damp, crumbling plaster, concrete cancer in loads of the buildings, lead piping...lovely public building work. I remember reading an article a while back about a charity run building that was over-capacity with people that (IIRC) caught fire and loads of them died...either that or part of it collpased...
 
kyser_soze said:
Damp, crumbling plaster, concrete cancer in loads of the buildings, lead piping...lovely public building work. I remember reading an article a while back about a charity run building that was over-capacity with people that (IIRC) caught fire and loads of them died...either that or part of it collpased...
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lead piping would be for older 19th century building, not post war estates. as for the fire you mentioned, this is again probably central paris. concrete cancer is bad, of course, but it doesn't mean that the flats are hovels.
 
No,just unsafe, prone to damp etc.

I've seen the flats and estates outside the peripherique and they ain't pleasant.
 
kyser_soze said:
No,just unsafe, prone to damp etc.

I've seen the flats and estates outside the peripherique and they ain't pleasant.
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but not as bad as some of the flats you still find in the eastern arrondissements of paris.
 
kyser_soze said:
No,just unsafe, prone to damp etc.

I've seen the flats and estates outside the peripherique and they ain't pleasant.
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How do they compare to the crapper estates in London, like Stonebridge?
 
peppery said:
How do they compare to the crapper estates in London, like Stonebridge?
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I don't know stonebridge, but I would imagine that there is much a similarity with the aylesbury estate in southwark, where there are many problems, but is not as bad as people make it to be.
 
guinnessdrinker said:
there is no need for conspiracy theories here. it's been brewing for a long time and sarkozy choice of words did not help.
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Wake up! The French political establishment are moving sharply to the right, toward a more authoritarian form of rule and they are deliberately stirring up anti-immigrant hysteria to do it. It's the good old enemy within agitation scam. Divide and rule, divide and rule, white against black - you ought to know the drill by now.

Eyewitness to Paris riots charges police with deliberate provocation
 
kyser_soze said:
He actually called them 'rabble' not 'scum', but hey let's not let accurate reporting get in the way of what people wanted him to say.
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He used the term "racaille". How do you translate this word?

He also talked about "cleaning out" the violent youth gangs with a "Karcher" (a high-powered hose).
 
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