riots in paris banlieu...

[poster342002]

Most people I know working in London change jobs every 3 or 4 years.

Through choice?

 

[nino_savatte]

And what does it say for those who have the cushy jobs and jealously guard their benefits at the expense of those unemployed. Those workers who demand six weeks off and full government pensions. Many of who surely rail against capitalism practised in America and England.

They are selfish. Their demands for these benefits makes it harded for their companies to hire other workers because of the expense.

I've noticed a couple of things here: first, England only forms part of the UK and second, you don't have a clue about France or any other country. Whatever works (and it only works superficially) for the US will not necessarily work for other countries

I am also certain that most workers in the US would gladly accept more paid leave. Do you honestly think it a good thing that people have very little free time for themselves?

You are comfortably well off and have probably never had to work for a low wage, or work two badly paid jobs in order to survive. Yet you would advocate this for others. Sick, twisted and sadistic.

 

[perplexis]

I've noticed a couple of things here: first, England only forms part of the UK and second, you don't have a clue about France or any other country. Whatever works (and it only works superficially) for the US will not necessarily work for other countries

I am also certain that most workers in the US would gladly accept more paid leave. Do you honestly think it a good thing that people have very little free time for themselves?

You are comfortably well off and have probably never had to work for a low wage, or work two badly paid jobs in order to survive. Yet you would advocate this for others. Sick, twisted and sadistic.

Merci nino_savatte

 

[Belushi]

One thing I know about the French is that however dissatisfied with the government and economy they are there is very little support for an 'Anglo-Saxon' style economy.

 

[poster342002]

i think its fair to call this a full on nationwide insurrection now.

Unless there's signs of the rioters being joined by workers and other parts of the public, then I wouldn't call this an insurrection. It just seems like utterly nihilistic, directionless, self-defeating and (dare I say it) a bit reactionary violence, tbh.

I mean, it's not as if it's similar in nature to the riots that precipitated the fall of Ceausescu or anything, is it?

 

[nino_savatte]

Merci nino_savatte

No worries. Mears believes that forcing people into waged poverty is the solution to poverty. He ignores the examples in his own country, for whatever reason he has; and I noticed his absence from the Hurricane Katrina threads.

I am only surprised that he hasn't heaped fulsome praise on Sarkozy and his machismo. But that's probably because he doesn't know the names of any French politicians except Chirac.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Pickled Politics has a good entry on this and a rather lengthy string of comments...

 

[where to]

Unless there's signs of the rioters being joined by workers and other parts of the public, then I wouldn't call this an insurrection. It just seems like utterly nihilistic, directionless, self-defeating and (dare I say it) a bit reactionary violence, tbh.

I mena, it's not as if it's similar in nature to the riots that precipitated the fall of Ceausescu or anything, is it?

no but i don't think it needs to be what you are saying to be labled an insurrection.

rganized opposition to authority; a conflict in which one faction tries to wrest control from another

:the act or an instance of revolting esp. violently against civil or political authority or against an established government; also : the crime of inciting or engaging in such revolt

:The act or an instance of open revolt against civil authority or a constituted government.

i'd call it an insurrection because the longer it goes on, and the tipping point for me was last night, when things escalated despite it being the end of the weekend, the more it evolves from being random rage in protest against the deaths of the two kids.

1200 have been arrested. this is not a game anymore. and most of the rioters i've seen speak have said they are going to continue until sarkozy resigns. i think that will take another week, and a brave showing from chirac, but it is to me clear that at the very least, this is their subconscious objective. as another poster said earlier in the thread.

"it moves through the forms and soon will understand itself". i think that moment has come. it has now become an open revol against sarkozy. it has definately moved on from the phase of being mere anger at the death of the two children.

the longer it has continued the more sympathetic (many) people have become. they are really being forced to question their policies (i know this because i have too, read my earlier posts in the thread. i've had to examine some assumptions too). paradoxically, the longer the revolt has continued the more legitimate it has become. i now support the aims of many of those in revolt. but i still want the violence to end and i want to see the government act, one way or another. they are like rabbits in the headlights right now.

 

[citydreams]

Meanwhile, in Marseilles...

Not a single trade union has issued a statement condemning the police terror taking place on a daily basis in French cities. Quite the opposite, led by the CGT they have sought to demobilize their membership and prevent any basis for unity between the unemployed in the suburbs and workers in the factories and workplaces. Entirely independently of the various trade union bureaucracies, workers and employees in public service, offices and the factories must raise the demand for the complete withdrawal of state forces from the housing estates and develop joint initiatives with the unemployed and immigrant communities to prevent further privatizations.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/nov2005/mars-n07.shtml

 

[where to]

60 year old man killed by rioters whilst putting out a fire in a garbage bin outside his house

"Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec, 61, dies of injuries he received in an assault on Friday in the town of Stains, Seine-Saint-Denis. French media suggest he is the first fatality of the riots."

white man murdered. this is very very bad news. might be whats needed to put folk off the rioting though?

fuck.

 

[where to]

map of affected towns

 

[poster342002]

This is what alarms me. This is, yet again, a dispute that's polarizing on racial lines. No good will come of this.

 

[treelover]

What is the the french far right saying/doing about the riots, are they attempting to capitalise on them?


mere anger

"it moves through the forms and soon will understand itself". i think that moment has come. it has now become an open revol against sarkozy. it has definately moved on from the phase of being mere anger at the death of the two children.

 

[treelover]

is this a right wing journal, it sounds like it is, and are they right in any way?

The latter, however, is unlikely to happen. If the politicians bring in the army they are acknowledging what the policemen, the fire fighters and the ambulance drivers know but what the political and media establishment wants to hide from the people: that there is civil war brewing and that Europe is in for a long period of armed conflict. This is the last thing appeasing politicians want to do and so they have begun to criticise Sarkozy.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/429

 

[treelover]

oh dear.

Churches were set ablaze in northern Lens and southern Sete, officials said, while at least 1,408 vehicles were torched around the country.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1636153,00.html

 

[kyser_soze]

Yeah, along with day care nurseries, schools...

In Colombes, outside Paris, a 13-month-old child required hospital treatment for a head injury after youths threw stones at a bus, Mr Hamon said, while a day-care centre in Saint-Maurice, another Paris suburb, was burned.

(from the article TL linked to)

 

[Isambard]

Cars burned last night in Berlin I just heard on the radio though it was put down to "bandwagon jumpers".

 

[Bomber]

What is the the french far right saying/doing about the riots, are they attempting to capitalise on them?

I expect that right wing groups throughout Europe will be rubbing their hands with glee at these events !

 

[nino_savatte]

I still don't hear much from the opposition. What's the crack with them?

 

[poster342002]

This is all really nasty stuff. There's nothing progressive about this at all.

 

[Giles]

I think the French should use the CRS or their army to stomp on this before it gets any worse. These people are scum, and they are mainly destroying their own communities.

Giles..

 

[Col_Buendia]

The country's biggest Muslim fundamentalist organisation, the Union for Islamic Organisations of France, issued a fatwa forbidding those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others".

Guardian

So, does that mean they support people who take action that strikes clear-sightedly at property, or is this just another example of religion coming to the aid of property rights?

 

[nino_savatte]

I think the French should use the CRS or their army to stomp on this before it gets any worse. These people are scum, and they are mainly destroying their own communities.

Giles..

You're a little late matey, isn't that happening already?

I'm sure you will approve of Sarkozy's efforts and his use of the word "racaille" (I see you've already used the word "scum") to describe all the rioters (and others).

 

[Sue]

I think the French should use the CRS or their army to stomp on this before it gets any worse. These people are scum, and they are mainly destroying their own communities.

Giles..

I'm interested to hear exactly why you think 'these people are scum'.

Though I do agree with your second point -- probably be much more effective if they burnt cars in the 16th or wherever....

 

[Giles]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the original riot over the 2 blokes who got electrocuted in the electricity substation, all these copycat rioters have no excuse - they are just hooligans smashing up their neighbours property, burning buses, schools, doctors surgeries, stuff that their families and community need to use.

For what?

When they have had a few nights of mindless "fun", it is their neighbours whose environment will now be even more of a shithole than it already was, it is them who have probably encouraged more discrimination against people from their area, caused businesses to close or move elsewhere.

Giles..

Edited for tpyo

 

[citydreams]

all these copycat rioters have no excuse - they are just hooligans..

This has happened in 60 seperate towns across France and you think it's just some kids having some fun?

Why don't you actually ask why they're doing it instead of condeming them as scum?

FFS

 

[TeeJay]

"Economic growth in France is job-poor. In effect, the French pay a price for the protections—a high minimum wage, security from lay-offs, a short work-week—that those in permanent full-time work enjoy. In labour-intensive sectors, France has become highly automated, and many new jobs are temporary. A Unedic survey shows that around one-third of the jobs employers expect to create in 2005 will be short-term. This introduces flexibility, but it also creates a two-tier system: comfortable, sheltered jobs for some; precarious, temporary ones for others.

Young job-seekers tend most often to be excluded—hence their anxiety. Asked on television last week why Britain's unemployment was so much lower, Mr Chirac replied that its social rules would be “unacceptable” in France. In the Rue Damrémont, that falls flat: what is unacceptable is not being able to find a job."

source: Not working - why France's unemployment is proving so intractable

(nb The comparison is still consistent even when you use internationally standardised ILO figures (see here: http://laborsta.ilo.org/ ) which adjust for the differences in definitions of 'unemployment' between countries)

 

[sihhi]

source: Not working - why France's unemployment is proving so intractable

TeeJay your article doesn't work- can you C+P the worthwhile parts of it.

 

[tobyjug]

I think the 4.8% figure for Britain needs taking with a huge pinch of salt, the government is doing a huge massage job on the figures for youth unemployment.

 

[TeeJay]

I think the 4.8% figure for Britain needs taking with a huge pinch of salt, the government is doing a huge massage job on the figures for youth unemployment.

Well go and have a look at international figures compiled by the International Labour Organisation (a UN body).

They confirm that France has far higher unemployment compared with the UK.