riots in paris banlieu...
- Thread starter DaveCinzano
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kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So, are the anarkids and their mentors about to organise a coach trip to France to go and help their revolutionary brothers and sisters smash the corrupt bourgeoise state of the crook Chirac? I mean I'd have thought it would be ideal to get out there and show some solidarity...
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
i think these riots have a very strong echo of the UK in the early 80s - dissaffected kids of immigrants kicking off agasint opressive poilcing and poverty etc.
I noticed that there was also rioting accross several other parts of france - particualrly normandy - Evereaux and Rouen. Are these likely to be french-arab kids? Are white french kids joining in as well (as also happened in britain)?
I was breifly in this neck of the woods a few months ago and noticed anti-cop graffiti right in the middle of these pretty, dingly dell normandy town centres - but I didn't think these are big french-arab areas.
I noticed that there was also rioting accross several other parts of france - particualrly normandy - Evereaux and Rouen. Are these likely to be french-arab kids? Are white french kids joining in as well (as also happened in britain)?
I was breifly in this neck of the woods a few months ago and noticed anti-cop graffiti right in the middle of these pretty, dingly dell normandy town centres - but I didn't think these are big french-arab areas.
My fear from this is that the Governments (both French and British) will use these sort of protest to push through even more radical security laws. We already have the new anti-terrorism laws being pushed through, what's the betting that they will target rights to assseble and protest. We already have various legal devices to prevent groups meeting up (ASBOs, etc).
in france though the debate is not even remotely connected to terrorism or religious extremism even. sarko was ridiculed even by the cops for attempting to suggest the rioters were the puppets of the islamic radicals. but the perception of the rioiting in the uk is going to be slightly different, largely due to ignorance.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
where to said:
Aye, this is the impression that I get. What I have also noticed is that media organisations, like the BBC, have only bothered to interview members of the UMP and not any opposition deputies.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Most of the press reports were pretty non-comittal on the actual causes, laying out the 'poor and pissed off', Islamic terrs and drugs gangs, but no 'this is whodunnit' statements...
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
where to said:
But the cops (and others) are convincing themselves that the riots are being organsied by mysterious youths on motor bikes (no link - radio and tV news reports yesterday).
Cops always say this when there is a spate of rioting - shadowy trots were blamed for helping organsie the 81 riots.
So a hue and cry about some Islamic 'black hand gang' stirring up da yoot may yet kick off - especially if its politically expeidient and/or fuelled by the likes of Le Pen.
Kaka Tim said:
Just a small point it is youths on scooters. (they are allowed to ride those at a very young age in France) Motorcyclists very much means adults in France due to various regulations.
It is only recently scooters have needed number plates in France due to them increasingly being used in antisocial and criminal activity.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Debate at the mo on BBC Asian Network about this and the recent Birmingham tensions.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Lea
Well-Known Member
where to said:
I've always thought it shocking that French unemployment figures is like over 3 million. It's not just recent either. It's been like this in the last 2 or 3 decades. In the UK if unemployment reached such figures it would be front page news and a top priority for the government to tackle.
There is more "protection" in France for employees. Once someone is recruited on a CDI (contrat durée indeterminé - indefinite term permanent contract) then it is very difficult to get rid of them thus making employers reluctant to offer CDIs or take on new people. Also people are reluctant to change jobs. In my company I have met countless colleagues who have been with the company for over 20 or 30 years and intend to stay until retirement. This doesn't happen in the UK. Most people I know working in London change jobs every 3 or 4 years. It's not in the French culture for people to change jobs. A job is for life.
well no doubt there are lots of kids going round on mopeds or whatever. also i think its misleading to call this rioting, as that ussually incinuates direct clashes between 'rioters' and the law. since the 4th or 5th day, most of the trouble has been arson attacks and the like.Kaka Tim said:
i think its fair to call this a full on nationwide insurrection now.
the fact that it escalated again last night, and the fact that the weather is due to be fair for the rest of the week in france tells me we're living through something pretty historic. where will it go though?
there is consensus amongst many insurrectionists i've heard that they will keep going til sarkozy resign and i think that while they're not all so political, the subconscious feeling of the riot nevertheless is that they aren't going to stop til they've destroyed him. for that though, they will need chirac on their side.
from liberation:
The government remains popular even if its methods are disputed. According to a survey CSA in Parisian-Dimanche/Aujourd' on Sunday carried out between the 2nd and 3rd of November (nearly one week after the beginning of violences), Sarkozy enjoys a "good image" for 57 % of the questioned people, but, for 63 % of them, he "uses sometimes shocking terms".
73 % consider he interventions "too media" and 66 % estimate that he stresses "too repression, not enough on the prevention".
that poll was carried out on wednesday thursday of last week. on the wednesday night only 170 odd cars were burnt, and last night there were 1400 burnt, so that was quite early on, when the trouble was only in the paris region.
The government remains popular even if its methods are disputed. According to a survey CSA in Parisian-Dimanche/Aujourd' on Sunday carried out between the 2nd and 3rd of November (nearly one week after the beginning of violences), Sarkozy enjoys a "good image" for 57 % of the questioned people, but, for 63 % of them, he "uses sometimes shocking terms".
73 % consider he interventions "too media" and 66 % estimate that he stresses "too repression, not enough on the prevention".
that poll was carried out on wednesday thursday of last week. on the wednesday night only 170 odd cars were burnt, and last night there were 1400 burnt, so that was quite early on, when the trouble was only in the paris region.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Sorry. said:
Why on earth would I want to do that? I have no inclination to help the French police restore order, just as I have no desire to go and join the rioters.
I also don't spend time talking about 'solidarity' with everyone across the world, which a large number of anarchists here mention on a regular basis, or how actions across the world should be supported.
I'm being facetious to an extent, but since this is a w/c struggle in France I'm surprised that there actually aren't at least a few people from the various anarchist sects taking a trip across the channel to help out.
Maidmarian said:
Make it easier for French firms to hire workers, through tax credits for instance. Waive minimum wage for young workers. Make it easier to fire workers. Let private business curb benefits to newly hired employees.
They need to make these changes and fast.
Unless you have some other ideas.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
mears said:
You left something out: force people to work for nothing; forbid them to join trade unions and for those who refuse to submit: build work camps and force them to labour for the state.
I am sure you will approve of my recommendations.
I'm really sorry to derail the thread but mears has managed to make me:mears said:
Pissy neo-con reforms will not help France to overcome the social instability that is due to inequality of wealth distribution. Just as they have failed to help that ANYWHERE EVER.
Why would waiving minimum wage be a good idea?
So you can "employ" a load of people on starvation-level wages, reduce your unemployment figures and keep them off the streets? So that what- the better off don't have to look at them or deal with the consequences of a system that causes poverty? Nice one! Everyone's a winner- businesses get cheap labour, and increase their profits. And their new employees get to be too exhausted doing their shit jobs to do any rioting, or in fact anything othe rthan watching TV....
And then you want the now-more-profitable business to get tax breaks! Wowee, can you see who's the winner in this socially-responsible corporate gang-bang? Can you? Hmm, would it, perchance, happen NOT to be the most impoverished? Those very people who would benefit the most from that which the revenue from INCREASED taxation of corporations could do for society?
ARGGGG. You are wrong. just plainly fucking wrong. Advocating a short-term capitalist solution to a problem that has more behind it than just money is not the answer.
/derail
and sorry about that
And what does it say for those who have the cushy jobs and jealously guard their benefits at the expense of those unemployed. Those workers who demand six weeks off and full government pensions. Many of who surely rail against capitalism practised in America and England.
They are selfish. Their demands for these benefits makes it harded for their companies to hire other workers because of the expense.
They are selfish. Their demands for these benefits makes it harded for their companies to hire other workers because of the expense.
perplexis said:I'm really sorry to derail the thread but mears has managed to make me:
Pissy neo-con reforms will not help France to overcome the social instability that is due to inequality of wealth distribution. Just as they have failed to help that ANYWHERE EVER.
Why would waiving minimum wage be a good idea?
So you can "employ" a load of people on starvation-level wages, reduce your unemployment figures and keep them off the streets? So that what- the better off don't have to look at them or deal with the consequences of a system that causes poverty? Nice one! Everyone's a winner- businesses get cheap labour, and increase their profits. And their new employees get to be too exhausted doing their shit jobs to do any rioting, or in fact anything othe rthan watching TV....
And then you want the now-more-profitable business to get tax breaks! Wowee, can you see who's the winner in this socially-responsible corporate gang-bang? Can you? Hmm, would it, perchance, happen NOT to be the most impoverished? Those very people who would benefit the most from that which the revenue from INCREASED taxation of corporations could do for society?
ARGGGG. You are wrong. just plainly fucking wrong. Advocating a short-term capitalist solution to a problem that has more behind it than just money is not the answer.
/derail
and sorry about that
What do you advocate? What should the French government do to get these people working.
Because people who have jobs don't generally have time to throw molotov cocktails. Speaking of which, time to go to work.
Look forward to seeing those suggestions this evening.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
In the UK, the level of unemployment is difficult to ascertain as (afaik), stats only count those who are eligible for JobSeekers Allowance - which is extremeley difficult to qualify for.Lea said:
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