riots in paris banlieu...

[mears]

The etnic makeup on the people running around in France is a touchy subject. I was in France one time right after 2001, just did the normal sights in Paris, normal tourist stuff. Never felt any tension. Some of you have been there many times i'm sure and know the country well.

Was this something expected? Is the media portrying these groups as mostly Muslim? Or is it a mix of more Africans and Muslims, other immigrants etc...

 

[mears]

It was the same in Belgium. I was working just outside Brussels in the run up to the war, every friday afternoon I'd be in a cab rushing to get the Eurostar and every friday there'd be this big fucking riot police scene (outside the US embassy) in the way.

Geeze. All American all the time indeed.

 

[treelover]

Can anyone translate any of these on the ground reports from Paris Indymedia


http://paris.indymedia.org/

 

[davgraham]

Can anyone translate any of these on the ground reports from Paris Indymedia


http://paris.indymedia.org/

You can get a machine translation on the same site.

but

you would need to be current with slang and current social realtions iin France to get most out of it.

Gra

 

[tobyjug]

Bomb factory my arse. Anyone could arrange 100 bottles full of petrol and a few headscarves by this time tomorrow if they really wanted to.

Next two hours if you like.

 

[tobyjug]

fuck sake. why does this surprise you? theres been thousands of cars torched in the last week.

1200 last night apparently.

 

[Lea]

Quick translation

Can anyone translate any of these on the ground reports from Paris Indymedia


http://paris.indymedia.org/

soutien aux émeutiers : ...RDV lundi 7 à 14h au tribunal de grande instance de Bobigny (93).

Support for the rioters: ...meeting Monday 7th at 14.00 at the Court in Bobigny (department 93).

Le mairie de Nanterre nous exploite ! Combattons

The Nanterre Local Council exploit us! Let us fight!

Oops! I just started translating the titles and then noticed that all you need to do is click on the french=>english button to get a full translation of each text.

 

[_pH_]

Where did I write I would join a protest?

If I wished to take some sort of action beyond legal protest

 

[tobyjug]

There are plenty of ways to legal protest without joining a herd of muppets waving banners and shouting slogans in the street.

 

[_pH_]

There are plenty of ways to legal protest without joining a herd of muppets waving banners and shouting slogans in the street.

That's very disparaging isn't it? Which protest methods do you use that are so much more effective then? Your emails to Tony Blair have changed Government policy have they?

Edit to add: my original point still stands though - it is increasingly becoming the case that anything viewed previously as merely 'protest' is now being re-defined as terrorism, subversive etc.

 

[Lea]

I live in the NW suburbs of Paris. Was watching the French news earlier this evening and they were saying that there are 9 year olds on the street torching cars. I say they should send in the army to sort out the problem. Either that or send the mothers out to tell their naughty little boys to go home and do their homework instead causing trouble.

Only read a few of the first posts in this thread. Wanted to say that the word "banlieu" encompasses both rich and poor areas. I live in a middle class area which hasn't been affected but just 5-10 minutes drive away in a poorer area there have been problems. The problems are located more in the "cités" ie the council house (usually blocks of flats) estates rather than the banlieu in general.

 

[tobyjug]

That's very disparaging isn't it? Which protest methods do you use that are so much more effective then? Your emails to Tony Blair have changed Government policy have they?

You might laugh at letter writing, e-mailing and lobbying but they do work. If and only if you have a sensible argument. One case in point was the removing of the limit on the number of 75 microgram aspirin that could be purchased at one time. (The limit imposed at first meant a 300 or 400% rise in the cost of low dose aspirin for those of us who have to take it as a heart attack preventative.)

 

[soulman]

There are plenty of ways to legal protest without joining a herd of muppets waving banners and shouting slogans in the street.

There may be plenty of ways for someone in your position to protest legally but that doesn't mean the same channels are open for everyone, especially for the poorest in society who also tend to be the most tightly policed. What can begin as a 'legal' protest can quickly become an 'illegal' protest if they don't do what they're told.

 

[_pH_]

What can begin as a 'legal' protest can quickly become an 'illegal' protest if they don't do what they're told.

That's the point I'm making that Toby doesn't seem to recognise.

 

[Lea]

There are plenty of ways to legal protest without joining a herd of muppets waving banners and shouting slogans in the street.

Joining a "manifestation" (protest march) in France is crap. I went to a march in Paris against the Iraq war ages ago and all I saw were the different groups publicising their own causes such as the Communist Maoist Party or the Support Palestine Group, waving the Palestinian flag etc etc...

 

[_pH_]

You might laugh at letter writing, e-mailing and lobbying but they do work. If and only if you have a sensible argument.

I haven't laughed at those methods at all and have used all of those myself. What makes you think I haven't? Oh, it's because I post on here, therefore I must be an rioting anarchist, right?

But sometimes they don't work, and as soulman says, letter writing is not always appropriate in all circumstances.

 

[_pH_]

Joining a "manifestation" (protest march) in France is crap. I went to a march in Paris against the Iraq war ages ago and all I saw were the different groups publicising their own causes such as the Communist Maoist Party or the Support Palestine Group, waving the Palestinian flag etc etc...

Not that different to here, TBH

 

[_pH_]

I live in the NW suburbs of Paris. Was watching the French news earlier this evening and they were saying that there are 9 year olds on the street torching cars. I say they should send in the army to sort out the problem. Either that or send the mothers out to tell their naughty little boys to go home and do their homework instead causing trouble.

Only read a few of the first posts in this thread. Wanted to say that the word "banlieu" encompasses both rich and poor areas. I live in a middle class area which hasn't been affected but just 5-10 minutes drive away in a poorer area there have been problems. The problems are located more in the "cités" ie the council house (usually blocks of flats) estates rather than the banlieu in general.

Sending in the army may possibly solve the problem short term (or it may not, and I don't think it's the correct answer), but how do you deal with the resentment that caused the trouble in the first place?

 

[where to]

Was this something expected? Is the media portrying these groups as mostly Muslim? Or is it a mix of more Africans and Muslims, other immigrants etc...

mears, when the immigrants arrived in france they were dispersed accross the different suburbs around france. no neighbourhood is predominantly algerian, or ivory coast or whatever. when they arrived in the coutry the suburbs were made up of white w/c french, eastern europeans, blacks, n/ africa musims...

over time most of the whites managed to get out of there. (blame the blacks themselves or blame racism. whatever)

what you have left is mostly north africans and blacks.

i'm not surprised that something has happened in france, because people have been saying there was growing unrest for a while. but this itself was mostly related to the destruction of the social model, globalisation etc, and not a suburban immigrant thing. can't say i was anticipating this myself. though in hindsight its not that surprising.

 

[Lea]

Sending in the army may possibly solve the problem short term (or it may not, and I don't think it's the correct answer), but how do you deal with the resentment that caused the trouble in the first place?

As for sending in the army, I was only jesting, sort of. I'm not sure if they should as it would blow the situation out of proportion. But then again if the police can't handle things by themselves...

Well it's still not confirmed whether the police were chasing the two kids when they got electrocuted. In any case, if the two kids hadn't done anything wrong, why were they running. If they were reasonable why didn't they just stop when the police asked them to?

The rioters on the street probably don't care about the original cause now. I suppose many are unhappy with the unemployment/living in a "ghetto" situtation but many are just out to cause damage for the pure enjoyment of it. That's how I see it.

 

[tobyjug]

Sending in the army may possibly solve the problem short term (or it may not, and I don't think it's the correct answer), but how do you deal with the resentment that caused the trouble in the first place?

I don't think it is the correct answer either. The French police are bad enough I shudder to think what the army would do let loose on the streets.

 

[_pH_]

Well it's still not confirmed whether the police were chasing the two kids when they got electrocuted. In any case, if the two kids hadn't done anything wrong, why were they running. If they were reasonable why didn't they just stop when the police asked them to?

They said about some guy who got shot in Stockwell recently......

But you could also say there are parallels with Brixton on the 80s. Blacks didn't like being stopped by the police because they knew there was a good chance of being locked up for the night and being given a good kicking.

 

[Lea]

I don't think it is the correct answer either. The French police are bad enough I shudder to think what the army would do let loose on the streets.

Some black guy who was interviewed for the evening news said that he heard police shouting "sales arabes" (dirty arabs) and other offensive insults at north africans and blacks. Would this happen so blatantly in the UK? I don't think so. I'm also very shocked when I see police "question" people on the street. I've seen transport police hitting blokes who walk away from them when they are talking.

 

[_pH_]

Some black guy who was interviewed for the evening news said that he heard police shouting "sales arabes" (dirty arabs) and other offensive insults at north africans and blacks. Would this happen so blatantly in the UK? I don't think so. I'm also very shocked when I see police "question" people on the street. I've seen transport police hitting blokes who walk away from them when they are talking.

Perhaps not now, but yes, it did happen, as I say, in places like Brixton in the 80s.

 

[soulman]

They said about some guy who got shot in Stockwell recently......

But you could also say there are parallels with Brixton on the 80s. Blacks didn't like being stopped by the police because they knew there was a good chance of being locked up for the night and being given a good kicking.

I think you'll find that most people, regardless of skin colour or anything else, don't like being stopped by the police. If you're poor then you're more likely to be stopped just by virtue of your material circumstances.

 

[tobyjug]

I think you'll find that most people, regardless of skin colour or anything else, don't like being stopped by the police. .

I think that rather depends on the circumstances and how often one gets stopped. It never bothers me, but then it has been a rare occurence.
If I were getting rousted everytime I went out the door that would piss me off.

 

[where to]

Well it's still not confirmed whether the police were chasing the two kids when they got electrocuted. In any case, if the two kids hadn't done anything wrong, why were they running. If they were reasonable why didn't they just stop when the police asked them to?

they ran because they didn't have papers apparently.

lea, what is the latest tonight. apparently ten cops got shot (i don't think with bullets) tonight. i'd like to know if it is as bad tonight as other nights, altho i guess we won't know for a while.

what is the feeling in france right now? could this bring down sarko if its still going strong in a weeks time? what is the left saying?

i read the greens and the communists are calling for Sarko to resign.

 

[mears]

France needs to give private Business some incentive to hire more people, young and old alike. According to this article, the unemployment rate for French under 25 years old is 23 percent. I wonder what the unemployment rate is for immigrant, or first generation French under 25, 40%, 45%?

Tax breaks for private companies and a loosening of labour standards is in order. Cushy jobs are lovely, but forcing private, tax-paying companies to extend 4 week vactions, big pension benefits, and full healthcare makes hiring people mighty expensive.

Pension obligations will continue to incease for a huge demography ready to retire and draw those pensions. Anyone who thinks France can afford massive government investment for its youth and pay these oldies benefits is dreaming.

Gernmany and France will have to accept that dreaded Anglo- American capitalism by default. The sooner they realize it the better.

 

[tobyjug]

I wonder what the unemployment rate is for immigrant, or first generation French under 25, 40%, 45%?

.

In the "ghettos" where the trouble started it is 60% plus.
A better description is trouble escalated as there are several areas across France where a ruck between disaffected ethnic minority youth and the police has been a regular Saturday night "entertainment" for some years.
Perversely music emerging from such ghettos is played as background music in many bars and cafés across France. (It has to be an improvement on Johnny Halliday. )

 

[soulman]

If I were getting rousted everytime I went out the door that would piss me off.

Indeed.