Riot going on now in Bristol - Stokes Croft

[Blagsta]

 

[LLETSA]

So you think everybody who favours capitalism is automatically right wing?

 

[audiotech]

Not necessarily, no. As I said, as far as I understand it, having come to see the left as a spent force and given up on the working class as the main agent of social change, they look to capitalist innovation to maintain the spirit of 'human experimentation.'

And ironically for an ex-trot group - 'permanent revolution'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lots of people favour capitalism without having a right wing philosophy, including many actual capitalists.

i'd have thought a lot of people would say that anyone who favours capitalism is well on the way to be a right wing shit.

 

[LLETSA]

i'd have thought a lot of people would say that anyone who favours capitalism is well on the way to be a right wing shit.

Well you'd be wrong. Lot's of people, shits or not, who favour capitalism, are not right wing.

In fact, it could be said that a majority of the population of this and many other countries, in their unwillingness to challenge it, favour capitalism. Are they all right wing shits?

 

[Pickman's model]

Well you'd be wrong. Lot's of people, shits or not, who favour capitalism, are not right wing.

In fact, it could be said that a majority of the population of this and many other countries, in their unwillingness to challenge it, favour capitalism. Are they all right wing shits?

there's a difference between favouring capitalism and putting up with capitalism.

 

[LLETSA]

there's a difference between favouring capitalism and putting up with capitalism.

How do we know that most people are only putting up with it?

What we do know is that most people in this or most other countries are not right wing.

 

[dynamicbaddog]

They don't appear to be right wing on most issues. Lots of people favour capitalism without having a right wing philosophy, including many actual capitalists.

I like Spiked.
I don't agree with a lot of what they say but I find them thought provoking.

 

[free spirit]

ask Cantsin he was the one who originally posted in support of 'Stowes Croft'.

Anyway here is Spiked's view of the fashionable anti Tesco lobby

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10503/

load of postering bollocks, without even attempting to look at whether or not there might be a genuine reason (or reasons) for the opposition to the expansion of tesco's and other supermarkets throughout the land.

still, it's spiked, so that's to be expected.

 

[The Black Hand]

Lots of them are right wing; I didn't deny that. But it doesn't necessarily follow that just beacause you favour the (so called) free market, you're right wing. Most of those involved in Spiked, for instance, are clearly not right wing. And throughout the world, there are few left of centre political parties who now seriously believe that there is an alternative to the free market. But most of those involved in them are not right wing in their views on anything else (or even regarding the free market, as they tell themselves that it can be made to benefit everybody.)

The radical left (anarchists included) realised this a long time ago, even if only subconsciously. It is why it concentrates mostly on defending liberal values.

Do you think taking all liberal progress away from everybody is a good thing Letsa? That seems to be an headbanging ultra left, &/or wishful thinking position (notice I didn't say you held that view).

 

[LLETSA]

Do you think taking all liberal progress away from everybody is a good thing Letsa? That seems to be an headbanging ultra left, &/or wishful thinking position (notice I didn't say you held that view).

What?

 

[audiotech]

**

 

[The39thStep]

Back open again apparantly.

Incidentially there is an interesting exchange of views following a typical Guardian article called The solidarity of Bristol's Stokes Croft community ie

was still a shock to see the culturally rich area, where I've enjoyed foreign language intercambios, live African hi-life music and Bristol's own brand of dubstep, turned into a battleground.

Good to see a couple of posters on here contributing. I must say that the article reminded me of the Peoples Republic of Hulme which Manchester City council thankfully demolished.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...tesco-bristol?commentpage=1#start-of-comments

 

[embree]

Whoever posted that comment knows fuck all about the area then

As do you, going by your last comment

Hope Tesco gets burned down btw, then we'll do yours as well

 

[The39thStep]

Whoever posted that comment knows fuck all about the area then

As do you, going by your last comment

Hope Tesco gets burned down btw, then we'll do yours as well

Re your first comment : this is exactly the debate in the comments section
second comment: were you familar with Hulme as well, if so speaks volumes.
third: why, do the locals here need a lesson from you and your chums about the correct view of tesco's?

btw i did have a look in and I must say that nestles cappuchino sachets were 6 pence cheaper that the Co-ops half price offer

 

[revlon]

the theory that squatters are the vanguard (literally speaking) of the gentrification process holds some water.

They make good the ruins of a socially and economically destroyed area and environment, then come the social outcast, the artist as slum dweller, the drug lords, students, cultural entrepreneurs, counter culture disposal income, the scummy bars with overpriced bottled beers, the sound system boutiques, the graffiti artist as commodity fetish, the politically prurient and before you know it you've got landlords increasing the rent, councils clearing the rubbish, boarded up property suddenly become desirable estate agant fodder, and lo a new housing market emerges.

Hulme just stayed shit.

 

[LLETSA]

Re your first comment : this is exactly the debate in the comments section
second comment: were you familar with Hulme as well, if so speaks volumes.
third: why, do the locals here need a lesson from you and your chums about the correct view of tesco's?

btw i did have a look in and I must say that nestles cappuchino sachets were 6 pence cheaper that the Co-ops half price offer

Hulme in the 1980s was on one level a haven for people who refused to grow up, but it was also a druggy nightmare and a mugger's paradise. No amount of organic vegetable shops could hide the fact

 

[revlon]

would've thought hulme would gladden the heart of a old soviet blocer?

Concrete for the people

 

[Pickman's model]

would've thought hulme would gladden the heart of a old soviet blocer?

Concrete for the people

it looks like someone unbent some paper clips and used them as a model for a housing estate.

 

[pesh]

don't be silly...

those are staples.

 

[embree]

fuck it, can't be arsed

 

[BlackArab]

Back open again apparantly.

Incidentially there is an interesting exchange of views following a typical Guardian article called The solidarity of Bristol's Stokes Croft community ie

Good to see a couple of posters on here contributing. I must say that the article reminded me of the Peoples Republic of Hulme which Manchester City council thankfully demolished.


[/I]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...tesco-bristol?commentpage=1#start-of-comments

This comment rings true

As a longstanding resident of Stokes Croft, I felt obliged to create a CIF account. On my phone. On Edge. To tell you just what nonsense you're talking.
Folks in Stokes Croft and the surrounding district quite like some of the artistic aspects of the PRSC and othersuch idealists, but that's where the support ends. 96% opposition to the store? Forget it. I've been asking my neighbours for the last 6 months if anyone surveyed their opinion and I'm yet to find a single one who either WAS surveyed, or who objects to this store opening in one of the city's poorest boroughs. You want to talk about AstroTurf?

Same here met/know loads around these parts who are in the anti camp but strangely enough I'm also yet to meet anyone who took part in the survey but yet the figures seemed to be accepted without question.

 

[embree]

Yeah, the way this survey - which, as I understand it, was conducted on Twitter ffs - is quoted as gospel constantly is very silly indeed. I completely accept that not everyone feels the same way and that an awful lot of nonsense is being spouted by both sides.

The PRSC - well, I felt kind of neutral about them until recently. Nice art, some interesting ideas. Lately though, I've changed that stance to actively hostile. They want the place to be 'edgy' but when it gets a little too much so, they retreat into cosy middle class liberalism. I'll be interested to see what they do with that three grand or so they got from the posters and which Bansky apparently felt uneasy about giving to the defendents' campaign. If that's true, he can fuck off too

 

[BlackArab]

Twitter! That's worse than I thought. At the first meeting the Chair suggested that a full survey of local residents could be done to find out the depth of feeling if something like this happened again. There was a surprising lack of enthusiasm for the idea from some of the anti's, it all becomes clear. I had no problem with their protest but the way they set themselves up as the voice of the community pissed me off. Oh and that Gus Hoyt is a smug twat too.

re PRSC if I hear Chris Chalkley described as 'community spokesperson' again in the meeja, I swear I'll spontaneously puke!

 

[embree]

My memory may be failing me but pretty sure it was Twitter

Not had any direct contact with Hoyt yet, seemed the best of the candidates a few weeks ago - not hard though eh?

 

[embree]

Amidst the usual bizarre rants on Bristol Indymedia, some interesting points made:

The PRSC has been given £3,300 that could have gone to a defendants bust fund. Tesco has now reopened. What are PRSC planning to do about it? If nothing, can they assure us that they will donate the money to the bust fund?

And while we're at it - Hamilton House have benefitted by £3,300 raised from selling a stencil about the riot, despite the fact that they locked their doors when the police charged and offered no protection from the police beatings, or in fact helped the protesters in any way.

Can they confirm how they will spend the money?

I'd certainly like to know this. Raking it in from the "edginess" of the area whilst turning their backs on local people protecting themselves from police violence? Surely not.

All of this misses the point that the riots were not just Stokes Croft vs Tesco. Stokes Croft is a tiny, barely inhabited strip of the area, and Tesco is only a symbol of how the wider area has been treated. How does the overly-focussed narative favoured here explain the attempt to reach Cabot Circus on the second riot, or the sheer volume of physical, frontline support shown from neighbouring areas on both nights? Do you really think the kids from Cotham give a toss about a Tesco on Stokes Croft?

The working-class areas of Bristol are tired and angry about their place in society. Every day we struggle with unemployment, low wages, meeting the rent, and the crushing hopelessness of life under this system. Mental health problems are epidemic in this country because advanced capitalist societies are adept at crushing people in ways they can barely see, let alone fight.

And so when hundreds of riot police turned up in our area and started pushing people around, we finally had an enemy we could fight, something solid and concrete to interact with. The riots were an outpouring of years of pent-up anger and frustration. The community, in general, understands this, even where they cannot articulate it. Speaking to people afterwards, I encountered overwhelming support for the first riot - and Stokey itself had the best atmosphere it's had in years!

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that violence alienates people. It alienates people who find themselves in the uncomfortable position of doing ok under the system, even though they know they'd probably be better without it. It alienates people who have enough imagined swing with "representative democracy", or enough of a potential career ladder, that they can imagine ever changing the system without it. It alienates people whose experience of violence is indirect enough that they don't entirely realise how much it permeates our everyday lives under this system. In short, it alienates the middle classes. For some of you, that may seem like a problem. I figure we can get by without their support.

Which raises the points I'd like to see discussed rather than the single Tesco issue which has been blown up out of all proportion

 

[Geri]

As I understand it, the much quoted survey took place on a website set up by the PRSC called "No to Tesco in Stokes Croft" - in which case it is surprising that it is *only* 93% or 96% or whatever the figure is!

 

[embree]

As I understand it, the much quoted survey took place on a website set up by the PRSC called "No to Tesco in Stokes Croft" - in which case it is surprising that it is *only* 93% or 96% or whatever the figure is!

Fair enough, I was a bit vague about the origins of the survey (as is everyone else it seems!) and had seen it was a Twitter thing. Either way it is ridiculous and does the anti side of the argument no favours, which is a shame.

 

[Geri]

Either way, it's not very scientific.

 

[DaveCinzano]

More...

The latest newsletter from St Paul's Unlimited Partnership features an article based on the public meetings held in the wake of the riots.

Among the questions-and-answers included is this corker:

Question:
Why was I not allowed through police lines to go home? Riot officers would not talk to me and they were rude.

Response from Chief Superintendent Jon Stratford:
Police do not know who is causing trouble immediately, and suspect people who are there are there to cause a disturbance. If people were in the area, they were recommended to go home.

Emphasis added for the hard-of-reading.