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Riot going on now in Bristol - Stokes Croft

There's a danger (and I'm aware I can fall into this too) of setting too much store by the blog/twittersphere. Almost by definition, this excludes many of the working class kids I saw the other night because teenagers from St Pauls aren't - so far as I can see - on twitter or blogging. This means that overexamination of the concerns of people talking about all this on the net ends up with the 'Tesco conclusion', that there's no other cause than Tesco/squat/policing. Yeah they're flashpoints but there's so much more under the surface - youth unemployment, education cuts, pressure on working class communities from asylum seekers, substance issues, people with mental health problems. I found a lad in my car park on Thursday night who'd been trapped in there by the automatic gates when the disturbances passed by. He's schizophrenic, lived in the Jamaica Street hostel and was freaking out. Spent ages with him and on the phone to the 999 people (who he'd called before I found him) and ended up walking him to A&E. Nice lad, wanted to do right by himself and his young son but stuck in a hostel he hates living in and with services for people like him contracting.

We have lots of people like him in this area and in an already pressured community it's an overconcentration which isn't good for them or for the community at large. These are problems which aren't being discussed by the arty bohemian types (well, not as much as Tesco or whatever) and I get the distinct impression that many of them want this to begin and end with Tesco. Talk of 'our cause' and losing the argument through the actions of 'these dickheads'. I dislike Tesco, don't want it there, no bones about that. But it's not the be all and end all of what's behind the disturbances beyond the individual flashpoints and the linking of people's anger to one community campaign is unhelpful and limiting. There needs to be more community coherence but not of the sort the hipsters and trusties are on about - THEY need to gain some kind of understanding of, and empathy with, the working class areas they've landed on top of. Sadly I've heard too many comments - on the street and online - which are sneeringly dismissive of the people they live alongside. Some hipster on his fixie was watching the roof siege yesterday and started being loudly sarcastic about another guy near us who was venting his anger at police. The hipster bloke was assuming that everyone nearby was going to back him up but I know I didn't. Should have said something tbh.

We've got a lot of arty bohemian types here who - in my opinion - have some interesting things to say and do. I enjoy some of their contributions, street art and whatever. However, they're not the only people here and they can't assume - like Chalkley and others - that they speak for all of us and we have one united point of view on things. They may see their Stokes Croft as being a hippie/hipster paradise, all art installations, organic food and voting Green/Lib Dem but my St Pauls (for that is what one side of the road is) is something else, with different concerns which occasionally coincide with theirs.

And that's leaving aside the relations with the rest of Bristol which, it seems to me, involve much mutual incomprehension on all sides.

That was a lot longer than I intended it to be :D
 
No, I felt that was something of a personal experience which doesn't hold true for everyone. I know girls who report consistently awful experiences here and others who have none - whatever the reasons behind that (perception, behaviour, it's another debate) I think it's fair to say that what she says there doesn't hold true for everyone by a long chalk!

How can she be unaware of this incident in February, which was all over the news?
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Police-seek-man-city-rape/article-3289595-detail/article.html

I am not usually in the area at night these days, but when I lived in Montpelier I was mugged on Picton Street (not technically Stokes Croft I know, unless you are going by Chris Chalkley's definition of the area) and my friend was grabbed from behind by a man when she was walking home - he ripped her earlobe in the struggle.

Of course there are other areas in which this happens (I would feel safer in Stokes Croft than I would on Stapleton Road at night) but it is stupid of the author of that article to claim that it is in any way safe for women (or anyone else for that matter).

Also, why the hell is she adding Southmead into the mix? What the hell has Southmead got to do with the area, apart from being at the other end of a very long road?
 
How can she be unaware of this incident in February, which was all over the news?
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Police-seek-man-city-rape/article-3289595-detail/article.html

I am not usually in the area at night these days, but when I lived in Montpelier I was mugged on Picton Street (not technically Stokes Croft I know, unless you are going by Chris Chalkley's definition of the area) and my friend was grabbed from behind by a man when she was walking home - he ripped her earlobe in the struggle.

Of course there are other areas in which this happens (I would feel safer in Stokes Croft than I would on Stapleton Road at night) but it is stupid of the author of that article to claim that it is in any way safe for women (or anyone else for that matter).

For sure and I think that if we want to show more community awareness we need to unite around this stuff as well as selling pottery and painting walls ;)

Your Picton Street comment made me think - he probably does think it's 'Stokes Croft' but would probably not think that City Road is. Which shows what a load of confused, self selecting bollocks this 'Stokes Croft as an area apart from St Pauls/Kingsdown' actually is
 
There's a map on his website which shows the area he would like to become part of Stokes Croft - it includes King Square, where my office is, and all the Dove Street flats. I can't work out which areas on the other side of Stokes Croft he wants, as it's too small. I'd like to know if he has asked the people who live in Kingsdown and Montpelier what they think of this idea!
 
Assume you meant this map

He excludes City Road but wants to include Lakota. Most of it is basically Stokes Croft/Jamaica Street but ti underlines the flexible interpretation of the definition. Afaic, east side of the road is St Pauls, west side is Kingsdown

No, hang on! There's another map same page, sorry only looked at the top 'conservation area' map.

Second map shows a huge landgrab including lower Cheltenham Road, Dove Street, the Bearpit etc. So 'Stokes Croft' is now supposed to include parts of Cotham, Kingsdown and Broadmead but still showing very little interest in St Pauls - which doesn't surprise me tbh. The difference in the culture and attitude between the arty bohos and longstanding St Pauls residents is enormous
 
Would someone local think it unusual to simply say 'St Pauls' for this area?

Just wondering if there's any sensitivity about saying 'new St. Paul's' riots.
 
Would someone local think it unusual to simply say 'St Pauls' for this area?

Just wondering if there's any sensitivity about saying 'new St. Paul's' riots.

Some of the rioting took place in St Pauls but some didn't, so it wouldn't really be fair.
 
Some of the rioting took place in St Pauls but some didn't, so it wouldn't really be fair.

Yeah, I think it's worth drawing a distinction in some ways because the disturbance generated in Cheltenham Road which is either Cotham or Montpelier depending on which side of the road you're on. There's a definite St Pauls element to a lot of it but only elements - the blog post I linked to above got it right in describing the Croft as a 'buffer zone' where various identities, classes and backgrounds rub up against each other.

To define the riots as St Pauls only would need to see it happening down Grosvenor Road or thereabouts and spilling out, not Stokes Croft and spilling in. You might think it a tenuous distinction to draw but I think the language we use is important here, it can make a big difference in perception of what's going on.

If you have a map - east side of Stokes Croft up to Ashley Road is St Pauls. West side up is Kingsdown. North of Ashley Road is Montpelier and north of Nine Tree Hill is Cotham.

ETA - last parts of this directed at Bernie and others, I'm sure Geri's familiar enough with the area :D
 
Ok, thanks.

Just sort of vaguely wondering if it's important for the media to avoid framing it as being in any way comparable to the 1980 riot, also kicked off by heavy-handed policing and a pre-cursor to many inner city areas going up in flames the following year sort of thing ...
 
Ok, thanks.

Just sort of vaguely wondering if it's important for the media to avoid framing it as being in any way comparable to the 1980 riot, also kicked off by heavy-handed policing and a pre-cursor to many inner city areas going up in flames the following year sort of thing ...

You have a point and it's occurred to me that there's an interest in continuing to frame this as 'Tesco riots' avoiding any other possible cause of the disturbances. Just so long as this can be portrayed as some local difficulty involving bolshy trustifarians and crusties, links to other similarly put upon inner cities can be avoided. But we'll see - St Pauls to Brixton took around a year in 1980/81, not so sure it'll be that long before something goes off somewhere else this time
 
See this police press release about Thursday:

Assistant Chief Constable Anthony Bangham said: "We are doing everything to identify as many people who were involved in last night's disorder as possible.

"My message to all of you is simple. If you were involved in this disorder in any way – and there were more than 400 people who were there – then when we identify you, we will arrest you.

"It doesn't matter if you are captured on camera at the front throwing rocks, or if you were standing behind somebody else doing this, encouraging and inciting them to commit action..."

So he's basically saying if you join a protest you will be arrested.
 
That's basically it. Obviously anybody who thinks they're in the photos released shouldn't come forward and anybody who recognises someone should not tell the police.

The pictures themselves are, in many cases, ridiculous. Blurred, indistinct and unenlightening. As I said up there somewhere, the few that are detailed show exactly why people need to mask up
 
It is not the sort of area where girls can walk home safely at 4 in the morning. There is no such area!
Not safe, but at least often busy at 4am. I'm never felt particularly unsafe in this area anyway.

Yeah, I think it's worth drawing a distinction in some ways because the disturbance generated in Cheltenham Road which is either Cotham or Montpelier depending on which side of the road you're on. There's a definite St Pauls element to a lot of it but only elements - the blog post I linked to above got it right in describing the Croft as a 'buffer zone' where various identities, classes and backgrounds rub up against each other.

To define the riots as St Pauls only would need to see it happening down Grosvenor Road or thereabouts and spilling out, not Stokes Croft and spilling in. You might think it a tenuous distinction to draw but I think the language we use is important here, it can make a big difference in perception of what's going on.

If you have a map - east side of Stokes Croft up to Ashley Road is St Pauls. West side up is Kingsdown. North of Ashley Road is Montpelier and north of Nine Tree Hill is Cotham.

ETA - last parts of this directed at Bernie and others, I'm sure Geri's familiar enough with the area :D
I thought a lot of the action was around Brigstock Road? Seemed like more St. Pauls than Cotham/Kingsdown.
 
Well that depends on where you were! Last week there was lots happening around Nine Tree Hill and further up. The other night was Nine Tree Hill/Jamaica Street/Dove Street as well as stuff apparently happening up Cheltenham Road as far as Sainsburies (so Cotham and even Redland) - not sure what but certainly reports of debris scattered around there. The wider these things spread the harder it is to keep track of what's happened where
 
See this police press release about Thursday:

Assistant Chief Constable Anthony Bangham said: "We are doing everything to identify as many people who were involved in last night's disorder as possible.

"My message to all of you is simple. If you were involved in this disorder in any way – and there were more than 400 people who were there – then when we identify you, we will arrest you.

"It doesn't matter if you are captured on camera at the front throwing rocks, or if you were standing behind somebody else doing this, encouraging and inciting them to commit action..."

So he's basically saying if you join a protest you will be arrested.

Would it be fair to say that liason efforts and other relations between police and the local community have now collapsed?

Or are they continuing on the basis of somehow liasing with 'ordinary' community members while excluding 'extremists' ?
 
"It doesn't matter if you are captured on camera at the front throwing rocks, or if you were standing behind somebody else doing this, encouraging and inciting them to commit action..."

What if you were standing behind someone asking them to stop?
 
Would it be fair to say that liason efforts and other relations between police and the local community have now collapsed?

Or are they continuing on the basis of somehow liasing with 'ordinary' community members while excluding 'extremists' ?

Or to put it the other way around, one would hope that anyone claiming to be a competent journalist would want to see evidence that the police are maintaining a dialogue with a plausible cross-section of 'ordinary' community members before falling for any version of 'it's only a handful of extremists' - I don't think getting the odd Tory or UKIP punter to say that they're shocked at the violence for the local rag would count as 'liasing with the community' in any meaningful way.

I suspect that they can't demonstrate that meaningful police-community liason, dialogue or whatever, is still happening, and if that's true, this fact can be used to question the 'extremists' narrative currently dominant in the mainstream media.

If they are attempting to create an illusion of such dialogue without actually letting it happen (I'm getting the idea that real dialogue would be angrily mediapathic right now), then I would suggest that needs to be exposed as widely as possible.
 
The police've cancelled the 'community meeting' that was going to take place tomorrow at the Polish Church (now transmuted into a pair of 'beat surgeries') "due to a planned protest", though they don't say what that is.
 
Well there's a police-community meeting on Friday at the Polish Church on Cheltenham Road. Given that A&S Police have effectively threatened to arrest anyone who was present, I doubt there'll be a true cross section of the community present - but then again that's how this works. Develop relations with the 'respectable' residents and isolate the rest. I shant be going.

Talking to a few people at the rooftop stand off yesterday morning, there's a real feeling of resentment at the police presence in the area. There's an ongoing feeling of resentment at the numbers of riot vans cruising the area, parked up etc. It's a pointless show of strength from a force who have twice lost control of the area, played a frontline role in starting and then exacerbating trouble and are now pedaling furiously to look like they know what they're doing. Statements today about how they're going to arrest everyone regardless of what they were doing are designed to send a message to Redland, Cotham and the other well to do areas nearby that they're in charge and to intimidate an angry neighbourhood.

I shall be interested to know what happens next Friday but not as interested as in what happens in our streets where the outsiders who caused trouble are still here and not welcome.

Bit biased, yes there'll be some who want to buy into the Police side of the story. They'll be co-opted and the rest of us can go to hell
 
The police've cancelled the 'community meeting' that was going to take place tomorrow at the Polish Church (now transmuted into a pair of 'beat surgeries') "due to a planned protest", though they don't say what that is.

Yeah, saw that. I'm assuming some Mayday stuff somewhere? Doubt they feel they can spare the officers for 'beat surgeries', if there's some tame march somewhere given their obvious desire to show everyone who's running the show with ludicrous overkill (see also: St Werburghs cinema event & very visible policing at the football today).

Still - Ashley News curry eh? I support this new initiative
 
Well there's a police-community meeting on Friday at the Polish Church on Cheltenham Road. Given that A&S Police have effectively threatened to arrest anyone who was present, I doubt there'll be a true cross section of the community present - but then again that's how this works. Develop relations with the 'respectable' residents and isolate the rest. I shant be going.

<snip>

Well, if they are going to try to pretend that they have the consent of the community to behave like this, it's probably quite important for members of the community who dispute this to show up and say so, loudly ... otherwise it's kind of a fait accomplis ... just saying ...

I think it might turn out to be important to challenge them along the lines of:

'Your relationship with the community in that area has completely broken down hasn't it Chief Constable?'

'Do you understand "community liason" to mean barging in, cracking heads and threatening retaliation?'

'Well OK, if this is policing with the consent of the community, where is that consent being evidenced? At the consultation meeting where you arrested half of the people who turned up?'

'Do you think the members of the community who were arrested instead of getting a chance to get their point across would agree with your interpretation of these events?'
 
I for one feel very reassured by the visible police presence on neighbourhood streets tonight.
 
Well, if they are going to try to pretend that they have the consent of the community to behave like this, it's probably quite important for members of the community who dispute this to show up and say so, loudly ... otherwise it's kind of a fait accomplis ... just saying ...

I think it might turn out to be important to challenge them along the lines of:

'Your relationship with the community in that area has completely broken down hasn't it Chief Constable?'

'Do you understand "community liason" to mean barging in, cracking heads and threatening retaliation?'

'Well OK, if this is policing with the consent of the community, where is that consent being evidenced? At the consultation meeting where you arrested half of the people who turned up?'

'Do you think the members of the community who were arrested instead of getting a chance to get their point across would agree with your interpretation of these events?'

Well I would but they say they're going to nick anyone who was seen in the vicinity of the riot so I don't think I will
 
walked up from the full moon to the arches tonight and it was scary just how many coppers there were hanging about. even my younger sister doesn't know a whole load of the background to it thought it was proper mental and a bit intimidating.
 
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