Rebuilding the Unions - the biggest task for the working class and the left?

[Groucho]

Yes, all very fine words - but the problem is that it just goes on not actually happening - for the reasons that rauscher, myself and others have set out ad-infinitum. How do you propose to overcome that?

In part by sidelining the scabs and nay sayers.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I've dealt with these lies before.

Why are you saying that the Cabinet Office lying about the numbers on strike? If 80% scabbed why does even this Government body accept that a clear majority of PCS members were out?

Why do you spread such lies anyway Mr Scab? Oh yes, of course....

Why do you lot continue to say things are all hunky dory when they plainly are not.

The question is what should be done to improve things. And as for the 80% I was referring to both the section I work in and the civil servants that we have contact with. Basically during the 'strike' there was very little that inturrupted the flow of work. I think that gives an indication about how effective the strike was.

 

[Groucho]

Why do you lot continue to say things are all hunky dory when they plainly are not.

The question is what should be done to improve things. And as for the 80% I was referring to both the section I work in and the civil servants that we have contact with. Basically during the 'strike' there was very little that inturrupted the flow of work. I think that gives an indication about how effective the strike was.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out that whilst there are shit areas such as where you are the strikes have been widely supported as accepted even by the Cabinet Office.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

your office is not the world, or even the majority of the civil service

No but we have links withother parts of the civil service and do you know what there was no interruption of workflow. If the strike had been effective we wouldn't have been able to work. Now take your head from the hole in the ground, look round and wake up and smell the coffee. Old style union stuff is not working. Using outdated 19th century insults like scab have no effect either.

Unions have to be proactive and give people a product they can believe in. Trot guff and fetishisation of Marxist and other failed products of the 'dead Russians' is not going to cut the mustard anymore. Most of the people in my place treat the union as an insurance policy, nothing else matters.

 

[belboid]

yawn, repeating the insults of others hardly helps your case. FACT is well more than 80% went out on strike, whether that significantly affected workflow is a different matter. For you to try and muddle the two together is just an excuse. Everyone knows unions need to be more 'proactive' but you, and poster, are just offering excuses as to why no one should even bother.

And scab is a perfectly good 21st century insult too - if someone scabs, they scab, whether you like it or not

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Unions are fucked. Impotent talking shops paid for by the subs of individual members. The questionis how do you change that. I'm trying to do my bit but its fu cking frustrating to have doors closed in your face at each turn and grinding pointless beauracracy not to mention people who refuse to see reality.

No wonder people look at the equation 'tenner a month to be a member of a union or a couple of pints' and choose the 'couple of pints'.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

yawn, repeating the insults of others hardly helps your case. FACT is well more than 80% went out on strike, whether that significantly affected workflow is a different matter.

But if the strike HAD been effective then it would have been noticed. Whats the point of a strike when only the union officers bother to go out.

For you to try and muddle the two together is just an excuse. Everyone knows unions need to be more 'proactive' but you, and poster, are just offering excuses as to why no one should even bother.

erm, I'm bothering. Getting knockbacks and frustrations not from management but from my own fucking union.

And scab is a perfectly good 21st century insult too - if someone scabs, they scab, whether you like it or not

And your point is......... If the insult has no meaning then it has no power.

 

[Groucho]

yawn, repeating the insults of others hardly helps your case. FACT is well more than 80% went out on strike, whether that significantly affected workflow is a different matter. For you to try and muddle the two together is just an excuse. Everyone knows unions need to be more 'proactive' but you, and poster, are just offering excuses as to why no one should even bother.

And scab is a perfectly good 21st century insult too - if someone scabs, they scab, whether you like it or not

'Workflow' would not have been massively disrupted in HQ buildings because PCS grades are not the majority - PROSPECT, FDA, consultants and employment agency staff make up the majority. But workflow was disrupted big time across the country - but only for a day since it was a one day strike. Galleries closed. Job Centres closed. People seeking on 31 Jan to take in their tax returns couldn't, passports were not processed, driving tests cancelled, even court hearings were cancelled.

Whilst posternumbers seems terminally miserable to the point where absolutely nothing would ever be good news for him, it will always be shit, KBJ has shown repeatedly a willingness to recourse to lies. You simply can't trust anything he says. He hates unions, he hates the left, that's about the only part of this poster that is for real.

 

[belboid]

But if the strike HAD been effective then it would have been noticed. Whats the point of a strike when only the union officers bother to go out.

well, it wasnt only the union officers that went out was it? stop lying - this kinda bullshit is precisely why the only person who now evinces any sympathy for you is a sad old depressed defeatist.

And your point is......... If the insult has no meaning then it has no power.

well, it obviously does still have meaning - it annoyed you when you were called it.

 

[nino_savatte]

Unions are fucked. Impotent talking shops paid for by the subs of individual members. The questionis how do you change that. I'm trying to do my bit but its fu cking frustrating to have doors closed in your face at each turn and grinding pointless beauracracy not to mention people who refuse to see reality.

No wonder people look at the equation 'tenner a month to be a member of a union or a couple of pints' and choose the 'couple of pints'.

So whose fault is it that the unions (not all of them, there is the very admirable RMT) are fucked? Is it the fault of the membership - many of whom are too busy voting for their fave person on Big Brother - or the leadership?

One also has to remember that the current state of the unions is down to Thatcher's anti-union policies and her desire to create an "enterprise culture" where 'everyone' would become an "entrepreneur". Too many folk were bought off with this shite. It would seem that she has succeeded; union membership is at an all time low and unions are portrayed in the media as "outdated dinosaurs". Let's face it, the mass media has never been well disposed towards the unions.

I was watching Andrew Marr's History of Britain and, once again, Orgreave was portrayed in a very one-sided fashion: the awful miners were chucking stones at the hard-pressed police. The general picture painted by Marr was one of "the unions went over the top and had to be stopped". That's only true if you're a Tory or one who had the most to lose from organised labour.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

'Workflow' would not have been massively disrupted in HQ buildings because PCS grades are not the majority - PROSPECT, FDA, consultants and employment agency staff make up the majority. But workflow was disrupted big time across the country - but only for a day since it was a one day strike. Galleries closed. Job Centres closed. People seeking on 31 Jan to take in their tax returns couldn't, passports were not processed, driving tests cancelled, even court hearings were cancelled.

I take your point about HQ buildings. But why isn't PCS recruiting and holding these people. BTW members of FDA and PROSPECT are in no means the majority in my office or the offices we deal with.

Whilst posternumbers seems terminally miserable to the point where absolutely nothing would ever be good news for him, it will always be shit, KBJ has shown repeatedly a willingness to recourse to lies. You simply can't trust anything he says. He hates unions, he hates the left, that's about the only part of this poster that is for real.

I'll ignore the comment about lies except to say that I can only report what I see on the ground and what I'm seeing on the ground is not like what is being reported by some of the left posters on here.

I don't hate unions, I just hate the closed shop, arrogant branch secs, outdated campaign techniques etc. I don't hate the left either just the sort of left who sign up with the Islamists or groups whose membership would fit in a phone box trumpetting about the 'revolution just around the corner'.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

well, it wasnt only the union officers that went out was it? stop lying - this kinda bullshit is precisely why the only person who now evinces any sympathy for you is a sad old depressed defeatist.


well, it obviously does still have meaning - it annoyed you when you were called it.

Wake me up when the records changed will you.

 

[poster342002]

In part by sidelining the scabs and nay sayers.

How do you do that on the (in my experience, many) occasions when they're a MAJORITY of a workplace?

 

[poster342002]

I've dealt with these lies before.

Why are you saying that the Cabinet Office lying about the numbers on strike? If 80% scabbed why does even this Government body accept that a clear majority of PCS members were out?

Why do you spread such lies anyway Mr Scab? Oh yes, of course....

Isn't it always more important to concentrate on strengthening the weakest links in a chain - instead of looking at a chain that's broken all over the floor and saying "but look at that link over there! It's stayed SOLIDLY intact!" ?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

So whose fault is it that the unions (not all of them, there is the very admirable RMT) are fucked? Is it the fault of the membership - many of whom are too busy voting for their fave person on Big Brother - or the leadership?

Both in my opinion. You have a combination of leadership at all levels not listening to members and members who could and should be more active.

One also has to remember that the current state of the unions is down to Thatcher's anti-union policies and her desire to create an "enterprise culture" where 'everyone' would become an "entrepreneur". Too many folk were bought off with this shite. It would seem that she has succeeded; union membership is at an all time low and unions are portrayed in the media as "outdated dinosaurs". Let's face it, the mass media has never been well disposed towards the unions.

That I can partially agree with as well.

I was watching Andrew Marr's History of Britain and, once again, Orgreave was portrayed in a very one-sided fashion: the awful miners were chucking stones at the hard-pressed police. The general picture painted by Marr was one of "the unions went over the top and had to be stopped". That's only true if you're a Tory or one who had the most to lose from organised labour.

Well Scargill was a dictatorial cunt who was just as much a disaster for the miners as Thatcher. He didn't listen to intelligence about coal stockpiles, he wouldn't call a ballot for fear of defeat. He came out of it on top with a nice wedge which is more than you can say for the poor rank and file miners.

With an example like that is it any wonder that people buy into the anti union bullshit of the Sun etc.

 

[poster342002]

And scab is a perfectly good 21st century insult too - if someone scabs, they scab, whether you like it or not

And why aren't you calling scabs those scabbing people in those places with majority-scabbing?

 

[poster342002]

'Workflow' would not have been massively disrupted in HQ buildings because PCS grades are not the majority - PROSPECT, FDA, consultants and employment agency staff make up the majority.

Oh, FFS, even the civil servants I know in those areas tell me that there was sod-all participation BY WHAT PCS MEMBERS THERE WERE!

"it's over before it's begun" was what one CS said on 5 Nov 2004 upon seeing the near-total normal attendance.

 

[belboid]

Wake me up when the records changed will you.

tres amusent. doesnt alter any facts tho, you lie about participation in the strike to justify yourself and your previous scabbing (which, to your credit, you now recognise was wrong), that's a fact.

 

[nino_savatte]

Both in my opinion. You have a combination of leadership at all levels not listening to members and members who could and should be more active.


That I can partially agree with as well.


Well Scargill was a dictatorial cunt who was just as much a disaster for the miners as Thatcher. He didn't listen to intelligence about coal stockpiles, he wouldn't call a ballot for fear of defeat. He came out of it on top with a nice wedge which is more than you can say for the poor rank and file miners.

With an example like that is it any wonder that people buy into the anti union bullshit of the Sun etc.

Thatcher smashed union power; not just the power of the NUM but all unions. Scargill may have miscalculated and he may have been a megomaniacal cunt but, for a time, there was some genuine opposition to her and her policies. Instead, we now have a situation where people believe that unions aren't for them and find, to their cost, that they're being fucked over by their bosses and they have no support and bugger all power to change things. The bosses understand only too well the benefits that a non-unionised workplace brings them. Many workers are only too happy to go along with this. There are, of course, many workers who don't go on strike when their union calls a strike. They are still scabs, in my book. They play the bosses game and still have no shame and will even try and justify it by mouthing lines about "Trots" or some other pitoyable merde.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

tres amusent. doesnt alter any facts tho, you lie about participation in the strike to justify yourself and your previous scabbing (which, to your credit, you now recognise was wrong), that's a fact.

Of course scabbing is wrong but there is no point in getting your head shot off for fuck all when everyone around you is doing the same.

I was there in 04 and saw the utter fuck up it all was. Utterly pointless willy waving on the part of PCS. Didn't prevent our organisation getting fucked over.

To use an analogy the pcs strikes were like someone who shoots themselves in the foot and then shoots themselves in the other foot in an attempt to cure the first injury.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Whoops double post

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Thatcher smashed union power; not just the power of the NUM but all unions. Scargill may have miscalculated and he may have been a megomaniacal cunt but, for a time, there was some genuine opposition to her and her policies.

No we had a small bit of localised opposition to her policies. The miners didn't do for Thatcher the furore over the poll tax did.

Instead, we now have a situation where people believe that unions aren't for them and find, to their cost, that they're being fucked over by their bosses and they have no support and bugger all power to change things.

Just like being in some unionised workplace then. Part of the problem is that people look at the union and decide that its not for them in the light of what they've seen.

The bosses understand only too well the benefits that a non-unionised workplace brings them. Many workers are only too happy to go along with this. There are, of course, many workers who don't go on strike when their union calls a strike. They are still scabs, in my book. They play the bosses game and still have no shame and will even try and justify it by mouthing lines about "Trots" or some other pitoyable merde.

The point is nino is that most union members care very little for the politics of trade unionism and only really want the union as an insurance policy. Any ideas on how to change that? Because what I'm getting from a lot of people on here isn't constructive.

 

[nino_savatte]

No we had a small bit of localised opposition to her policies. The miners didn't do for Thatcher the furore over the poll tax did.



Just like being in some unionised workplace then. Part of the problem is that people look at the union and decide that its not for them in the light of what they've seen.



The point is nino is that most union members care very little for the politics of trade unionism and only really want the union as an insurance policy. Any ideas on how to change that? Because what I'm getting from a lot of people on here isn't constructive.

I keep hearing this and I keep hearing about how we should "rebuild unions and the working class" but here, you actually admit that many folk can't be arsed with unions.

How much of what you have said is "constructive". You seem far more content to label folk "Trots" than to find ways to achieve your dreams.

So why is it that some union members defy their union leadership and scab? I worked for 3 local authorities; at Islington I was employed on a temp contract but I still went on strike with my colleagues and stood on the picket line while others (the full timers) decided to scab. This undermines solidarity and plays into the hands of management.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I keep hearing this and I keep hearing about how we should "rebuild unions and the working class" but here, you actually admit that many folk can't be arsed with unions.

Thats the point they look at the structure of a union and think 'I really can't be bothered with dry as dust meetings and being harranged.' It also goes hand in hand with the fact that people don't 'join' t hings as much as they used to.

How much of what you have said is "constructive". You seem far more content to label folk "Trots" than to find ways to achieve your dreams.

Its constructive to look at a situation and say 'fuck me this has failed' lets think in a more creative way to get results. But no the unions continue the same old shit that puts people off. I'm at least trying to get some form of union sponsered social events off the ground to get people involved. Much better than joining some tiny left sect.

So why is it that some union members defy their union leadership and scab? I worked for 3 local authorities; at Islington I was employed on a temp contract but I still went on strike with my colleagues and stood on the picket line while others (the full timers) decided to scab. This undermines solidarity and plays into the hands of management.

Because the union isn't relevant or the fight is unwinnable are two reasons.

 

[nino_savatte]

Thats the point they look at the structure of a union and think 'I really can't be bothered with dry as dust meetings and being harranged.' It also goes hand in hand with the fact that people don't 'join' t hings as much as they used to.


Its constructive to look at a situation and say 'fuck me this has failed' lets think in a more creative way to get results. But no the unions continue the same old shit that puts people off. I'm at least trying to get some form of union sponsered social events off the ground to get people involved. Much better than joining some tiny left sect.



Because the union isn't relevant or the fight is unwinnable are two reasons.

"The union isn't relevant"? And who says that the fight is "unwinnable",who decides that? You say that you're a member of a trade union bu on he basis of this post, I don't know why you bother paying your subs. Why not leave, that way you can scab with impunity.

 

[poster342002]

who says that the fight is "unwinnable",who decides that?

In the case he's mentioning, the government is quite plainly not taking the slightest notice of the PCS campaign. It is simply stonewalling and going ahead with it's planned cuts by relentlessly beefing up disciplinary and sick-leave proceedures to catch more and more people in the net. Interestingly, it'll be PCS "comrade" members who's offical line-manager role will be to enforce those discipline/sick proceedures against fellow memebrs. I wonder how much solidarity they'll show? I also wonder how many manager-grade members who did strike to save jobs will not hesitate to use the new sick/disciplinary regimes upon their subordinates?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

"The union isn't relevant"? And who says that the fight is "unwinnable",who decides that? You say that you're a member of a trade union bu on he basis of this post, I don't know why you bother paying your subs. Why not leave, that way you can scab with impunity.

I pay my subs for the same reason every other fucker seems to do for insurance in case things go wrong. I was delighted to find that I was working in a unionised place and joined straight away, attended meetings and even 'shock horror' went on strike. When I saw just how many people bothered to support the strike I thought 'why should I lose a days money when no other fucker does'.

As regards what is unwinnable or not shouldn't that be left to the individual members rather than union leadership locked away in an ivory tower?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

In the case he's mentioning, the government is quite plainly not taking the slightest notice of the PCS campaign. It is simply stonewalling and going ahead with it's planned cuts by relentlessly beefing up disciplinary and sick-leaev proceedures to catch more and more popel in the net. Interestingly, it'll be PCS "comrade" members who's offical line-manager role will be to enforce those discipline/sick proceedures against fellow memebrs. I wonder how much solidarity they'll show? I also wonder how many manager-grade memebrs who did strike to save jobs will not hesitate to use the new sick/disciplinary regimes upon their subordinates?

Word! As I speak pcs members are doing just what you say there.

 

[nino_savatte]

In the case he's mentioning, the government is quite plainly not taking the slightest notice of the PCS campaign. It is simply stonewalling and going ahead with it's planned cuts by relentlessly beefing up disciplinary and sick-leave proceedures to catch more and more people in the net. Interestingly, it'll be PCS "comrade" members who's offical line-manager role will be to enforce those discipline/sick proceedures against fellow memebrs. I wonder how much solidarity they'll show? I also wonder how many manager-grade members who did strike to save jobs will not hesitate to use the new sick/disciplinary regimes upon their subordinates?

That's the poorest excuse for scabbing that I've ever heard of.

 

[nino_savatte]

I pay my subs for the same reason every other fucker seems to do for insurance in case things go wrong. I was delighted to find that I was working in a unionised place and joined straight away, attended meetings and even 'shock horror' went on strike. When I saw just how many people bothered to support the strike I thought 'why should I lose a days money when no other fucker does'.

As regards what is unwinnable or not shouldn't that be left to the individual members rather than union leadership locked away in an ivory tower?

So if you feel that way, why not leave the union?