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Rebuilding the Unions - the biggest task for the working class and the left?

belboid said:
funny how on all of these threads its always the same two people who come on and, rather than offering any practical suggestions about how things might be improved (and the whole point of the thread is that things do need to be improved, no matter what our two nay-sayers claim), they just go 'its shitey shitey shite shite' and effectively say there's no point in bothering.

Fine, you don't bother, but fuck off stopping anyone else not as depressed as the pair of youse.

belboid that is simpky not true .. KJ keeps on about small simple things he is doing to try to rebuild his branch .. yet you totally ignore this .. he has also described the problems that he sees .. that honestly is a million time smore progressive than shouts of false strength
 
poster342002 said:
I agree. Try telling that to most of the membership, though. Believe me - I've tried and tried and tried all my working life - only to see everyone scab, scab and scab again whenever any action is called. Then they whinge about crap pay rises and ask "why isn't the union doing anything?". :rolleyes:
how long has 'all your working life' been?
 
durruti02 said:
belboid that is simpky not true .. KJ keeps on about small simple things he is doing to try to rebuild his branch .. yet you totally ignore this .. he has also described the problems that he sees .. that honestly is a million time smore progressive than shouts of false strength
his 'honesty' is no such thing tho - as has been pointed out many times he is forever trying to claim that his office is representative of the entire PCS, when everyone else knows that isnt true. Fair play to him on the bits he is trying to do - if he keeps them up longer than a couple of months - but his attacks on the union for actually trying to lead a campaign against the cuts is right-wing bullshit.
 
poster342002 said:
A lot longer than a lot of the shouty-student trot-types.
pre-miners? if so then your claim that all your colleagues have always scabbed on strikes strikes me as somewhat dubious to say the least.
 
belboid said:
his 'honesty' is no such thing tho - as has been pointed out many times he is forever trying to claim that his office is representative of the entire PCS, when everyone else knows that isnt true. Fair play to him on the bits he is trying to do - if he keeps them up longer than a couple of months - but his attacks on the union for actually trying to lead a campaign against the cuts is right-wing bullshit.

Its not the fact that there is a campaign against the cuts its the manner of the campaign that I have problems with. Getting all shouty and playing plastic revolutionary isn't helping the campaign.

As regarding what I'm doing. I'm going to give my branch 4 months and if I continually keep getting blocked as I am at the moment (although it seems to be getting better) then I will go back to treating the union as an insurance policy. Or look for a commercial legal fees insurance if that works out cheaper.
 
belboid said:
his 'honesty' is no such thing tho - as has been pointed out many times he is forever trying to claim that his office is representative of the entire PCS, when everyone else knows that isnt true. Fair play to him on the bits he is trying to do - if he keeps them up longer than a couple of months - but his attacks on the union for actually trying to lead a campaign against the cuts is right-wing bullshit.
No, what he's saying is (if I may speak on his behalf) is that the campaign is having no overall effect and that a large number of members are routinely scabbing (this has to be faced up to and acted upon fast). He is in fact urging people to take stock of this and rethink the strategy. And all people like you can do is howl him down with latterday versions of yelling "Heretic! Heretic! Witch! Witch!".
 
4 months is fuck all, i'm afraid. it takes longer than that to build up the necessary contacts and trust of the members, its a long-term thing, cant be done overnight
 
poster342002 said:
No, what he's saying is (if I may speak on his behalf) is that the campaign is having no overall effect and that a large number of members are routinely scabbing (this has to be faced up to and acted upon fast). He is in fact urging people to take stock of this and rethink the strategy. And all people like you can do is howl him down with latterday versions of yelling "Heretic! Heretic! Witch! Witch!".
only because he's talking shit and falsely claiming his workplace is the norm, when it isnt. that you back him up is no surprise
 
belboid said:
pre-miners? if so then your claim that all your colleagues have always scabbed on strikes strikes me as somewhat dubious to say the least.
No. Entered the workforce in 1990. Not seen one majority-observed strike (let alone successful one) in any workplace I've ever been in in all this time.
 
poster342002 said:
No. Entered the workforce in 1990. Not seen one majority-obvserved strike (let alone successful one) in any workplace I've ever been in in all this time.
fair enough, i'd got the impression you'd been around longer than that for some reason. there have, of course, been a number of successful strikes since then, but they have been the minority. the solution is long slow often boring re-building work tho, not simplistic shouting 'its all shit and a waste of time' from the sidelines.
 
belboid said:
only because he's talking shit and falsely claiming his workplace is the norm, when it isnt.
Really? Then why does just about every civil servant I know tell much the same tale of piss-poor strike participation?

Quote from a London civil servant on the dismal strike turnout in their office for 5/11/04 strike: "it's over before it's begun".

The anecdotals simply don't match the hype.
 
poster342002 said:
No. Entered the workforce in 1990. Not seen one majority-obvserved strike (let alone successful one) in any workplace I've ever been in in all this time.

Well, there it is. I've been working since 1976 and I've witnessed the systematic destruction of the unions under Thatcher. I saw how workers were bought off with the prospect of owning their own council house. I've seen how the unions were portrayed in the media as "the enemy within". I've seen so-called working class people rush to buy shares in the companies that they already owned.

Thatcher wanted to crush any opposition to the state and the unions threatened her vision of a Neu Jerusalem, so she found ways of detaching the workers from the unions; the source of their power.
 
poster342002 said:
Really? Then why does just about every civil servant I know tell much the same tale of piss-poor strike participation?

Quote from a London civil servant on the dismal strike turnout in their office for 5/11/04 strike: "it's over before it's begun".

The anecdotals simply don't match the hype.
04? you're going back a bit.

Most civil servants I know say the strike was very successful, in its own terms - majority walk out at all workplaces, managers only in the dwp.
 
belboid said:
04? you're going back a bit.

Most civil servants I know say the strike was very successful, in its own terms - majority walk out at all workplaces, managers only in the dwp.
The DWP has traditionally been strong, unionwise. But as I said earlier, it's no good continually focussing on the strongest link in the chain - it's the weakest that need urgent attention or the whole thing falls apart.

As far as I can tell, the government is not taking the slightest notice of these strikes and they're not laying people off in the conventional manner. Instead of mass reducndancies, there's a steady tightening of the sick and disciplinary penalties which themselves are enforced by PCS memebrs over others.
 
The cynics will be swept aside when workers feel confident enough to take on the employers.

As nino's already mentioned. Thatcher and her attack on the most organised of workers in the eighties struck a hammer blow to all organised workers. That is what was intended. To give management the upper hand.

It takes time to rebuild, it's not going to happen overnight.

The postal workers are about to enter into the fray. If they win then confidence in others can only grow.
 
poster342002 said:
The DWP has traditionally been strong, unionwise. But as I said earlier, it's no good continually focussing on the strongest link in the chain - it's the weakest that need urgent attention or the whole thing falls apart.

As far as I can tell, the government is not taking the slightest notice of these strikes and they're not laying people off in the conventional manner. Instead of mass reducndancies, there's a steady tightening of the sick and disciplinary penalties which themselves are enforced by PCS memebrs over others.

you need to pay special attention to the weakest links in order to strengthen them, clearly, but that is a very different thing to presenting those weakest links as the norm.

Its also tre about the tightening of sickness & disciplinary procedures, and it is certainly arguable that the union nationally isn't doing enough about that, but that just goes to show the need for good local stewards - many of whom are actually those old shouty lefties.
 
MC5 said:
The cynics will be swept aside when workers feel confident enough to take on the employers.

As nino's already mentioned. Thatcher and her attack on the most organised of workers in the eighties struck a hammer blow to all organised workers. That is what was intended. To give management the upper hand.

It takes time to rebuild, it's not going to happen overnight.

The postal workers are about to enter into the fray. If they win then confidence in others can only grow.

This is the point isn't it? There are real possibilities of rebuilding a trade union movement capable of progressive militant resistance. The PCS strikes are a significant contribution (although 2 and a bit strikes in 6 months won't change the World). The level of unionisation and of rank and file organisation and confidence is vastly greater in the post than in the CS, but the CS has seen strong support in most areas for the strikes, and the mood is not dissipating. A rising level of discontent creates the possibilities of action in health, education, local Government as well.

The background to all this is the legacy of the defeats of the 80s and a massive Government assault against public services and against public sector workers. We are facing a battle that has to be won. It is no exageration to say that the future of Health, the Welfare State, education etc is under threat.
 
belboid said:
his 'honesty' is no such thing tho - as has been pointed out many times he is forever trying to claim that his office is representative of the entire PCS, when everyone else knows that isnt true. Fair play to him on the bits he is trying to do - if he keeps them up longer than a couple of months - but his attacks on the union for actually trying to lead a campaign against the cuts is right-wing bullshit.

belboid i really do not see what you are seeing re KJ .. sorry but i think you are misreading him .. i do not agree with eveything that he says but if you can not engage with him about what he says about problems he reports than how can we start to deal with those issues, and tbh i would have to agree with him and say you are living fantasy re workplace struggles
 
because his good bits are always justified by the shite. fair play to his making some effort, more than most do, but the rest of the attitude is offering excuses for those on the fence to jump down on the wrong side. workplace struggles will always lose if most of the supporters are going 'well, i know its a waste of time but i'll go out anyway' That attitude is part of the problem.
 
belboid said:
because his good bits are always justified by the shite. fair play to his making some effort, more than most do, but the rest of the attitude is offering excuses for those on the fence to jump down on the wrong side. workplace struggles will always lose if most of the supporters are going 'well, i know its a waste of time but i'll go out anyway' That attitude is part of the problem.

i am again not sure he IS doing what you suggest .. i think he is explaining not justifying .. i also denies it .. why not work with that for now ..:)
 
Have to say I think KJs attitude is a recipe for demoralisation.

Obviously the unions are in a bad state, but you've got to have some kinda positivity and confidence in the ability of workers to change that around.

The postal workers are about to enter into the fray. If they win then confidence in others can only grow.

I think this will be crucial. The last strike of this significance was probably the FBU strike, which was at a far more militant level than the PCS strikes to be honest. If the FBU strike had been won then confidence would have gone up a lot but their defeat did mean confidence in other unions was knocked back.

I'm actually very sceptical of the SWPs approach which is extremely top heavy both in terms of "Fighting Unions" and the way they are organising in the unions. I actually think the SWP in the NUT have been a disgrace and their sucking up to the bureaucracy has only resulted in Sinnott (sp?!) throwing it in their face.

While I totally agree that we should go for united action we shouldn't make this a pre-condition. Because when the PCS accepted the two-tier pension/workforce deal (which was a blow in my view), it opened the door for other union leaders to sell out. And then when UNISON/Prentis sold everyone out that was it, bureaucracies in unions like the NUT used it as an excuse to call things off saying we can't go it alone. But unions can go it alone, and as said while we obviously want united action, if that doesn't happen we should still fight in individual unions for strike action.

This is especially important as if I'm honest I think that on the back of the penions defeat the UNISON bureaucracy might be able to head off any serious action.
 
poster342002 said:
The DWP has traditionally been strong, unionwise. But as I said earlier, it's no good continually focussing on the strongest link in the chain - it's the weakest that need urgent attention or the whole thing falls apart.

As far as I can tell, the government is not taking the slightest notice of these strikes and they're not laying people off in the conventional manner. Instead of mass reducndancies, there's a steady tightening of the sick and disciplinary penalties which themselves are enforced by PCS memebrs over others.

Not so sure if I agree with the above. I'm aware of several departments including my current and former, that are currently going through a second round of voluntary redundancies/voluntary early retirements.

As for tightening the screws on disciplinary issues, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. For disciplinary cases to be dragged on and on is not to the benefit of the individual - who has a long period of instability, not to the benefit of the team whose morale is dragged down, not beneficial to the department and not beneficial to the taxpayer.

I recently had one case that should have been an open-and-shut failed probabtion case on the grounds of failing to make the grade. Because the manager and team leader had not been through the agreed processes the whole case fgot dragged out over 9 months - I still don't know the outcome as I've since transferred. This was in the middle of a redundancy/restructuring programme and a lot of members were put on "priority mover" status as a result - though not this individual who was effectively given a permanent job because he needed to be given a "fair" chance to prove he could make the grade. The fact that he seemed to be bragging about the fact he wasn't a priority mover didn't go down too well either.

As a branch rep - and as someone who was forced into becoming a priority mover at the time, I felt that a lot of sand was kicked in my face over this and it really made me feel that:
1) The relationship between the unions and the employers needs to be re-looked at.
2) There needs to be a much stronger management culture within the public sector.

Given that recent civil service staff surveys have slammed the senior management culture and say that departments need to be much more robust about dealing with poor performance, I think that the unions need to learn that it is in the interests of their members to have a fair, efficient and robust performance management system.

Given that the Gershon review has torn into human resources departments across Whitehall, I don't think the civil service is in a position to start punitive disciplinary actions en masse in an effort to cut jobs. If anything it is far too time and resource-intensive. If anything there is an artificial head-count reduction through contracting functions out to the private sector, whether it's through consultants or tendering for corporate functions such as IT and computing. Those budgets come out of a different "pot" so don't count on the figures. It would be interesting to see the trend in levels of spending on some of these functions vis-a-vis spending on staff costs.
 
You sound like a Tory/NL there, PR, disciplining the workers is the right way to go, is it? maybe some of the cases you talk about are because of the stresses low paid civil servants are under
 
Prince Rhyus said:
Not so sure if I agree with the above. I'm aware of several departments including my current and former, that are currently going through a second round of voluntary redundancies/voluntary early retirements.

As for tightening the screws on disciplinary issues, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. For disciplinary cases to be dragged on and on is not to the benefit of the individual - who has a long period of instability, not to the benefit of the team whose morale is dragged down, not beneficial to the department and not beneficial to the taxpayer.

I recently had one case that should have been an open-and-shut failed probabtion case on the grounds of failing to make the grade. Because the manager and team leader had not been through the agreed processes the whole case fgot dragged out over 9 months - I still don't know the outcome as I've since transferred. This was in the middle of a redundancy/restructuring programme and a lot of members were put on "priority mover" status as a result - though not this individual who was effectively given a permanent job because he needed to be given a "fair" chance to prove he could make the grade. The fact that he seemed to be bragging about the fact he wasn't a priority mover didn't go down too well either.

As a branch rep - and as someone who was forced into becoming a priority mover at the time, I felt that a lot of sand was kicked in my face over this and it really made me feel that:
1) The relationship between the unions and the employers needs to be re-looked at.
2) There needs to be a much stronger management culture within the public sector.

Given that recent civil service staff surveys have slammed the senior management culture and say that departments need to be much more robust about dealing with poor performance, I think that the unions need to learn that it is in the interests of their members to have a fair, efficient and robust performance management system.

Given that the Gershon review has torn into human resources departments across Whitehall, I don't think the civil service is in a position to start punitive disciplinary actions en masse in an effort to cut jobs. If anything it is far too time and resource-intensive. If anything there is an artificial head-count reduction through contracting functions out to the private sector, whether it's through consultants or tendering for corporate functions such as IT and computing. Those budgets come out of a different "pot" so don't count on the figures. It would be interesting to see the trend in levels of spending on some of these functions vis-a-vis spending on staff costs.
The trouble is that when charges of "poor performance" are levelled at a member of staff, it's often because the line manager simply wants to throw their weight around, show "who'se boss" and big themselves up on a power trip by getting rid of someone by finding fault with EVERYTHING they do, moving goalposts, setting impossible deadlines and workloads etc - and they are usually backed up all the way by HR nomatter what the rigths and wrongs of the issue. It can't be right to make it easier for those arseholes to do that.

To be frank, if you as a union rep feel that "There needs to be a much stronger management culture within the public sector", I think it's time you thought about calling it a a day as a trade unionist. Maybe applying for a job in HR would be more your thing? The last thing the bedraggled TU movement needs is reps who think what's needed is an even stronger management.
 
poster342002 said:
The trouble is that when charges of "poor performance" are levelled at a member of staff, it's often because the line manager simply wants to throw their weight around, show "who'se boss" and big themselves up on a power trip by getting rid of someone by finding fault with EVERYTHING they do, moving goalposts, setting impossible deadlines and workloads etc - and they are usually backed up all the way by HR nomatter what the rigths and wrongs of the issue. It can't be right to make it easier for those arseholes to do that.

Yes, even were we to accept PR's post in part - the need for clear, fair, efficient and robust performance management system I couldn't argue against - the problem is that not all managers act fairly. The more leaway there is in the procedures for managers the more examples of unchecked unfairness occuring. Procedures need to ensure that managers support staff who may be having difficulties with the job, and through supportive action help staff to rectify any problem areas.

The trouble is in the current climate of job cuts, stress is increasing, workloads are increasing and the time to manage properly isn't there, and increasingly the sympathy for staff who are performing below par is lacking. It is not the job of union reps to cover up these problems by collaberating with efforts to sack staff more easily. With only rare exceptions I see a union reps role to make it as difficult as possible for managers to sack people.
 
poster342002 said:
Maybe applying for a job in HR would be more your thing? The last thing the bedraggled TU movement needs is reps who think what's needed is an even stronger management.

In my place the TU reps and the HR bods sit together in the same section and same desks. Talk about looking from pig to man and not being able to tell the difference.
 
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