Rape allegations against Jimmy Tarbuck

[existentialist]

Unfair seems especially fucking mild to me, from someone who has been questioning the prevalence and seriousness of sexual abuse in some very creepy ways for fucking months.

He's not stupid enough not to know how creepy it is. Makes my fucking skin crawl.

I didn't know the history. I'm interested - do please PM me some thread links, if you get a moment.

ETA: or, better still, post them here.

 

[coley]

Yes.

So, respond to ymu with anything but praise is 'harassment?' grow up, and if your postings are anything other than attention seeking,report your suspicions, in the meantime stick me on ignore or report me.

 

[coley]

Which, like I say, doesn't demonstrate much of an understanding of the issues. And, to a survivor of abuse, the slightly accusatory tone of the question is going to feel like a lot more than you might think.

It took me 40 years. I do not take kindly to people demanding of me "why did it take you so long?". It just did: in a world where disclosure was easier/more likely to believed, maybe it would have taken less time. And maybe I'd have disclosed early enough to prevent other people being abused. But it isn't, and I didn't, and no fucker is going to sit on their pedestal and make me feel guilty about that.
Anybody who has genuinely suffered abuse deserves sympathy but my concern is for those scouts she mentions.

And I won't stand idly by and see others judged in the same way, either.

 

[existentialist]

So, respond to ymu with anything but praise is 'harassment?' grow up, and if your postings are anything other than attention seeking,report your suspicions, in the meantime stick me on ignore or report me.

That sounds an awful lot like turning it into her problem. I daresay the truth will out over time, but just going on the, ah, somewhat insensitive interventions I've seen from you on this thread, it is starting to occur to me that she might have a point. It wouldn't hurt for you to give that idea houseroom, too...

 

[coley]

I didn't know the history. I'm interested - do please PM me some thread links, if you get a moment.

ETA: or, better still, post them here.

Never mind PMs let her have the honesty to put them up on here.

 

[coley]

Why is it separate? Children are very much considered by society to be in second place to adults. We can have debates about the need to discipline children by smacking them, and you'd get many agreeing that it was sometimes necessary to smack. Imagine trying to have that same debate about women or black people. You couldn't even frame the question. It would be bizarre even to ask it.

If you can agree that rape is a manifestation of power over women, why is sexual abuse not a manifestation of power over children? In one we are talking of a man who has an insecure sense of masculinity, and in the other we have and adult who has an insecure sense of maturity. I understand that your problem may well be that, almost by definition, we are talking about sexual arousal in the perpetrator. That brings us back to lbj's earlier post.

TBH not having a great deal of experience in these issues it's hard to put it into words,but I think rape is about power and sexual gratification,however I think child sexual abuse is about sexual gratification on a much sicker scale and less about power,however I am not minimising the pain and damage rape can cause but I just think the sexual abuse of children is somehow different and involves a more dangerous type of individual.

 

[danny la rouge]

TBH not having a great deal of experience in these issues it's hard to put it into words,but I think rape is about power and sexual gratification,however I think child sexual abuse is about sexual gratification on a much sicker scale and less about power,however I am not minimising the pain and damage rape can cause but I just think the sexual abuse of children is somehow different and involves a more dangerous type of individual.

Just because it's sick, and the perpetrator dangerous, doesn't mean it isn't about power.

 

[ymu]

Never mind PMs let her have the honesty to put them up on here.

If you insist.

The most recent incident was you claiming to have mistaken an OP by a youth worker, about a rise in young women suffering serious sexual abuse that they viewed as normalised, for "prurient trolling".

I don't actually care if you were lying about it as a weak excuse for your disgusting approach to that thread or if you genuinely are that sick in the head. Either way, you creep me the fuck out and you're nowhere near stupid enough not to know that given that you've been doing it for months and dozens of people have tried to explain it to you and your co-creeps.

 

[coley]

If you insist.

The most recent incident was you claiming to have mistaken an OP by a youth worker about a rise in young women suffering serious sexual abuse that they viewed as normalised for "prurient trolling".

I don't actually care if you were lying about it as a weak excuse for your disgusting approach to that thread or if you genuinely are that sick in the head. Either way, you creep me the fuck out and you're nowhere near stupid enough not to know that.

Aye, whey, sorry about that,in the meantime have you reported your concerns? or are you just confining your actions to complaining on here?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Aye, whey, sorry about that,in the meantime have you reported your concerns? or are you just confining your actions to complaining on here?

I think you should stop this now.

 

[coley]

Just because it's sick, and the perpetrator dangerous, doesn't mean it isn't about power.

I can understand that but what I am trying to understand is the 'balance' surely the power aspect is much greater when an adult forces themselves on another adult as opposed to a abusing a child where the power/authority in many ways already exists?

 

[coley]

I think you should stop this now.

She can be as offensive as she wishes, however she has pointed out there could be a group of children at risk, is this not an issue?

 

[ymu]

Aye, whey, sorry about that,in the meantime have you reported your concerns? or are you just confining your actions to complaining on here?

What concerns?

 

[Pickman's model]

This will end well

 

[coley]

What concerns?

The guy that harrassed me and other women at work, and whose case I let drop despite support from my bosses, was last seen getting into a minibus taking a group of scouts off for the weekend. Still haunts me.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

You utter bastard, coley. How dare you try to make this ymu's responsibility?

 

[ymu]

The guy that harrassed me and other women at work, and whose case I let drop despite support from my bosses, was last seen getting into a minibus taking a group of scouts off for the weekend. Still haunts me.

You should read threads you're posting on. Unless you actually like being a real fucking creep. Which you probably do.

 

[Treacle Toes]

What are they up to now?

Age of consent should be lowered to 13 to stop persecution of old men and sex assault victims SHOULDN'T get anonymity, says leading barrister

• Barbara Hewson is a barrister at Hardwicke chambers in London
• She described Operation Yewtree arrests as a 'grotesque spectacle'
• Claimed disgraced Stuart Hall's crimes were 'low level misdemeanors'
• NSPCC said her 'outdated and simply ill-informed' views 'beggars belief'

​

​

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...HOULDNT-anonymity-says-leading-barrister.html


Wasn't it Teresa May that endorsed some weird research findings along similar lines?

 

[coley]

You utter bastard, coley. How dare you try to make this ymu's responsibility?

Isn't it all our concerns, would you report somebody if you thought they were a risk to children, she says it haunts her, how will she feel if this bloke is found to be abusing children in his care, sorry if i come over as 'insensitive' but an anonymous phone call, is that asking to much?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Isn't it all our concerns, would you report somebody if you thought they were a risk to children, she says it haunts her, how will she feel if this bloke is found to be abusing children in his care, sorry if i come over as 'insensitive' but an anonymous phone call, is that asking to much?

You're attempting to put guilt and responsibility onto someone who was a victim of harrassment. That's horrible.

 

[danny la rouge]

I can understand that but what I am trying to understand is the 'balance' surely the power aspect is much greater when an adult forces themselves on another adult as opposed to a abusing a child where the power/authority in many ways already exists?

You've made my point for me.

 

[coley]

You're attempting to put guilt and responsibility onto someone who was a victim of harrassment. That's horrible.

I am most certainly not, just suggesting that if she knows or suspects this bloke is a risk to children then she should report it, nothing more.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I can't go to the local shops after dark here because of the number of 'friendly' men. It's scary as fuck for my partner too but at least they're only asking him to find them a street girl not trying to fuck him.

HTH

I wasn't referring to your personal situation in that post, I was referring to the general trend across England and Wales, so no. It doesn't "help".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just as rape is about power rather than sex, so child abuse is about power rather than sex. All adults have power over all children. Not all adults abuse that power, but the abuse is possible because of the power differential.

Here's some quotes from a couple of well-known books on violence against women:

Now, that is not to say that all men are rapists, even ones holding sexist views. It does say (and I agree) that where rape and violence occurs, it flows from social inequalities. Rape, violence against women, child abuse, are an extreme manifestation of a far wider societal attitude.

I'm not sure the sentence I've highlighted is accurate. Some (a minority) of sex offences against children are carried out by people with genuine delusions about the suitability of what they're doing. I'm not keen on standing up for people who do things that revolt me, but I'm not convinced it's fair to apply such a label so sweepingly.

 

[Badgers]

Who is winning the thread today?

 

[8ball]

It's about countering the assumption that rape is all about sex.

I suspect that is a large part of the reason behind why it is said - it clearly separates the overlapping Venn diagram conflating 'rape' and 'sex' which has caused and continues to cause great problems in dealing with the issue. I wanted to limit my question to how much evidence we have that it is true that it is always 'about power', though. What the 'about' bit means is obv important in picking that apart.

To the extent that penetration takes place, and the rapist might get gratification, there is "sex". That is the means by which the power is asserted. It is about power because abuse of power flows from unequal power. If there isn't a power discrepancy, then the person with the greater power couldn't abuse that power. If you carry out an act (any act) upon another's person against their wishes, you are saying "my wishes matter more than yours".

This just seems to be saying that it is a violation and an abuse of power, which I have no argument with. Your paragraph previous to this suggests that there is more going on when we say 'rape is about power', though, and that we are positing motive or reasoning or at least saying something about the meaning of the act that goes beyond this prosaic explanation.

For example, murder is an abuse of power but we don't say 'murder is about power'. We accept that the reasons for it can include a massive gamut of things from revenge to money right through to wanting to impress Jodie Foster, and we accept that a messy bundle of reasons and motives do not somehow make the act defensible.

I'm not aware of the sitcom you mention - it sounds quite charming and I did think you were talking about some execrable 70s shite until the end of the sentence.

 

[ymu]

I wasn't referring to your personal situation in that post, I was referring to the general trend across England and Wales, so no. It doesn't "help".

Then perhaps you can point us to those rapidly diminishing rape statistics that a bunch of coppers have just gone to prison for fiddling?

Or maybe note that violent crime in South Africa has halved since apartheid but rape appears to have barely changed.

Seeing as you're telling us all how very safe the streets are, I think you should report all the relevant statistics, not just the ones that are relevant to your everyday life. Because the last time I checked serious sexual assault was a virtual certainty for a women on this planet, and one in five of those women fortunate enough to live in the west will be raped at least once.

So please, tell us how very fucking safe it is out there.

 

[Treacle Toes]

What are they up to now?

​

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...HOULDNT-anonymity-says-leading-barrister.html


Wasn't it Teresa May that endorsed some weird research findings along similar lines?

C&P from FB on this subject:

Can I just point out that Spiked, which published Hewson's article defending the establishment, is part of the Living Marxism network which also includes Fiona Fox of the Science Media Centre and Tracey Brown of Sense About Science. Fox and Brown were prominent in an article in the last Sunday Times magazine written by Hanlon smearing ME patients as extremists. You can't make this stuff up.

Brendon O'Neil of The Telegraph, and the LM network, regularly prints opinion pieces attacking disabled activists. And so the list of establishment apologias by these extreme right-wing libertarians goes on.

Some of the UK's self-styled"leading" ME charities are now part of a collaboration project which includes Fox and Brown and whose leading light, Esther Crawley, is intent on carrying out medical experiments on children to discover whether charismatic faith healer Phil Parker's claims for his miracle cure are true or not.

Here is the excellent Powerbase, managed by Prof David Millar of Bath Univeristy, and its entry on the Living Marxism network which also includes entries on the above LM individuals -
LM network
http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/LM_network

 

[existentialist]

She can be as offensive as she wishes, however she has pointed out there could be a group of children at risk, is this not an issue?

No, it's not an issue. Laying a guilt trip on someone affected by abuse for putting others at risk by not making disclosure is sailing perilously close to blaming the victim, and thus transferring responsibility from abusers, and from a system that has made it more difficult than it needed to be for victims to report abuse.

I am well qualified to pass comment on this, as I am both a survivor, and a professional involved in working with people who have been abused. I KNOW how much psychological resilience is needed to deal with the aftermath of abuse, let alone what is involved in making disclosure - I consider myself to be considerably more psychologically resilient than many, and my experience of the disclosure process, even where the police have been exceptionally supportive, is thst, at times, my resilience is tested to the limit.

So anyone coming out with this bollocks to imply that it's not OK to complain about abuse if you're not prepared to go through with disclosure is going to get short shrift from me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think I need to zero in a bit on what you/danny/other people mean when you say rape is about power, because I'm not saying it isn't always an abuse of power. I'm with you 100% on that.

I might be misinterpreting what is meant when people say it is about power, though. That seems to be saying to me that the buzz of power and domination is the main motivating factor.

From a crim. psych. perspective I was wondering what the evidence was in terms of what is going on in people's heads when they commit these crimes, hence my question to danny because he is good on questions of evidence and I imagine there is a load of research out there, none of which I'm familiar with.

There's more than a "load", there's a mountain of research, especially into sex offences against children (by adults or other children), which is why I've pointed out to Danny that sometimes it isn't about power in quite the way that his post implies. Obviously, at the back of all sex offences against children is the fact of forms of power being exerted, but that's true of any human interaction - there's always a balance of power "in play" - not just of offending.
There's a broad categorical divide between sex offenders against children into "contact" and "non-contact" offences (broadly offences that involve physical contact, and those that don't, such as "internet grooming"). There's also a motivational issue. Some offenders are motivated through overt exercise of power (whether that's a case of "children are easy victims" or "it was done to me, so now I'm doing it to someone else") and others are motivated by what boils down to a series of failures of socialisation - for some reason they can't psychologically or physically relate to adults. This is a small group of offenders (IIRC about 15% of the whole), but they're probably the hardest to treat because treatment isn't about teaching them that with power comes responsibility, it's about pretty much reconstructing their psyches.

Hope that makes sense.