Rape allegations against Jimmy Tarbuck

[Pickman's model]

If you carry out an act (any act) upon another's person against their wishes, you are saying "my wishes matter more than yours".

you're also saying 'you can't protect yourself let alone exert your will over me'.

 

[danny la rouge]

The prevalence of rape - and especially the number of errors made by young men who are later horrified at what they once did - is proportional to the amount of macho prickery going on in a culture. It won't stop until men stop being taught that acting like a macho prick is an appropriate reaction when they can't think of anything better to do or say.

Indeed. It's about socially constructed views. It is not biologically determined that men behave in that way.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Isn't there another dimension to it, too? A link between sexual arousal and violence?

 

[danny la rouge]

Isn't there another dimension to it, too? A link between sexual arousal and violence?

Is there one? I'm aware of some evidence that heightened testosterone levels are associated with aggression in young men. There may well be studies on sexual arousal and aggression, but I'm not aware of them. However, what does that actually support?

 

[Pickman's model]

Isn't there another dimension to it, too? A link between sexual arousal and violence?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is there one? I'm aware of some evidence that heightened testosterone levels are associated with aggression in young men. There may well be studies on sexual arousal and aggression, but I'm not aware of them. However, what does that actually support?

I'm not sure. The physical domination involved in rape is itself a violent assertion of power, or a power-laden act of violence. Does the sexual arousal provoke the violence, or does the violence provoke the sexual arousal. Or are the two so intertwined that they need to be considered as a whole?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not sure. The physical domination involved in rape is itself a violent assertion of power, or a power-laden act of violence. Does the sexual arousal provoke the violence, or does the violence provoke the sexual arousal. Or are the two so intertwined that they need to be considered as a whole?

what about the expression of power? power's been described as the ultimate aphrodisiack...

 

[ymu]

I think I need to zero in a bit on what you/danny/other people mean when you say rape is about power, because I'm not saying it isn't always an abuse of power. I'm with you 100% on that.

I might be misinterpreting what is meant when people say it is about power, though. That seems to be saying to me that the buzz of power and domination is the main motivating factor.

From a crim. psych. perspective I was wondering what the evidence was in terms of what is going on in people's heads when they commit these crimes, hence my question to danny because he is good on questions of evidence and I imagine there is a load of research out there, none of which I'm familiar with.

I think it probably stems from powerlessness (perceived) and the willingness to abuse what power you have over whoever you have power over. Middle-class women tend to get raped by rich men or strangers, not known men who are less socially powerful than they are. In common with all women, they are most at risk from their current or former partners and most likely to be murdered in their own home (where patriarchal power relations abound).

The lower the social status (education, money, work, age, sex, skin colour, sexuality) the more likely you are to be a target because there are more people capable of abusing the power they have over you.

Younger adult women are more likely to die prematurely in their own homes due to violence than anything else. Men of the same age are most likely to die from violence outside the home. The vulnerable suffer from the need of the more powerful to prove how very powerful they are really, sometimes using their social position to abuse, sometimes using the only real power they have: that which resides in their fists.

I'm sure there often is sexual motive to rape. But the ability to rape resides in having both the power to rape and the inclination to abuse that power. That takes an entitled sort.

 

[ymu]

I think that's a very good question. I'd like to know, too. It would have to involve asking the rapists themselves, while of course remaining very cautious about how much insight they have into themselves.

Most of them think that all men rape but manage to keep quiet about it. Which is why society needs to stop normalising it.

Will track down the source for that. It's buried in here, I think.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Most of them think that all men rape but manage to keep quiet about it.

That would make sense in terms of allowing them to live with themselves. On a par with a paedophile's belief that his victims wanted it, despite all the compelling evidence to the contrary.

 

[ymu]

Hence 'banter' not really being banter. Teasing is only teasing when it causes no real harm or upset. It's called 'goading' when it does harm and nothing makes me want to punch some smug fucker more than goading people about the harm that others do to them, normalising the harm they apparently find hilarious.

I realise most of them just need to grow the fuck up but it would really help if proper grown-up men could point out the consequences of their playing down to these insulting stereotypes whenever it is physically safe to do so. They'd have a lot fewer regrets in later life if they caught on sooner.

 

[existentialist]

I dunno, I think we have to educate that out of humans in our education system and family upbringing. Certainly a toddler is liable to lamp anyone or anything in order to gain access to what he/she wants......



If a female is involved it will generally be combined with Male company in some way or another...

Not always true. There has been quite a succession of female teacher/male pupil cases which have resulted in conviction where the only male involved was the pupil.

 

[ymu]

Not always true. There has been quite a succession of female teacher/male pupil cases which have resulted in conviction where the only male involved was the pupil.

But, but men are always up for it? How could a woman ever abuse a man or boy when he's just a walking, talking mass of sexual urges that must be satisfied at all costs? She's doing him a favour, lucky boy, bet she taught him a thing or two, eh, eh?

 

[existentialist]

But, but men are always up for it? How could a woman ever abuse a man or boy when he's just a walking, talking mass of sexual urges that must be satisfied at all costs? She's doing him a favour, lucky boy, bet she taught him a thing or two, eh, eh?

I've worked with a couple of male survivors of that kind of abuse, and it was sad to see just how disturbing they found the situation. And yes, I know you're parodying the attitude

 

[ymu]

I've worked with a couple of male survivors of that kind of abuse, and it was sad to see just how disturbing they found the situation. And yes, I know you're parodying the attitude

I don't think parody is quite the right term. I think it's a fucking disgusting attitude. A man started a thread about being harrassed and flashed by a group of teenage girls recently. Some numpty (male) thought it was suitable for a parody thread.

I am not parodying the attitude so much as ripping the piss out of those who still cling onto ridiculous outdated beliefs that harm our children and teach them to grow up as either abusers or those who accept abuse.

 

[coley]

Just as rape is about power rather than sex, so child abuse is about power rather than sex. All adults have power over all children. Not all adults abuse that power, but the abuse is possible because of the power differential.

Here's some quotes from a couple of well-known books on violence against women:




Now, that is not to say that all men are rapists, even ones holding sexist views. It does say (and I agree) that where rape and violence occurs, it flows from social inequalities. Rape, violence against women, child abuse, are an extreme manifestation of a far wider societal attitude.

Rape and violence against women, as a manifestation of power? I could agree on, physical abuse against children? probably agree also, but sexual abuse involving children? No, I think it is a separate issue.

 

[ymu]

Savile raped people from age 9 to 30+

Hall has an accusation of rape against an older woman 'laid on file' now that he's confessed to assaulting kids.

Most of the Savile-related arrests have been for rape, not messing with underage children. Some have been both.

The guy that harrassed me and other women at work, and whose case I let drop despite support from my bosses, was last seen getting into a minibus taking a group of scouts off for the weekend. Still haunts me.

The line between paedophilia, ephebophilia and basic sex-pestery cannot be drawn that carefully. Attraction to pre-pubescent children is probably not a specialist pursuit even once you take the other nonces out. Having power over someone, a sufficient sense of entitlement (and usually a fucked up childhood) seems to be what brings it out in some, not a specific perversion.

 

[coley]

Savile raped people from age 9 to 30+

Hall has an accusation of rape against an older woman 'laid on file' now that he's confessed to assaulting kids.

Most of the Savile-related arrests have been for rape, not messing with underage children. Some have been both.

>>>The guy that harrassed me and other women at work, and whose case I let drop despite support from my bosses, was last seen getting into a minibus taking a group of scouts off for the weekend. <<<Still haunts me.

The line between paedophilia, ephebophilia and basic sex-pestery cannot be drawn that carefully. Attraction to pre-pubescent children is probably not a specialist pursuit even once you take the other nonces out. Having power over someone, a sufficient sense of entitlement (and usually a fucked up childhood) seems to be what brings it out in some, not a specific perversion.

Can't do quotes on this stupid thing, but given the recent encouragement to report abuse, even what is called 'historical abuse' why haven't you reported your concerns?

 

[UrbaneFox]

Coley. Don't harass ymu. At least say 'given the recent blah, have you thought about reporting him?'

Edit:

Or, I wonder how you would feel about seeing a solicitor / pressing charges/ going on the Jeremy Ky writing to Jenni Murray?

 

[ymu]

Can't do quotes on this stupid thing, but given the recent encouragement to report abuse, even what is called 'historical abuse' why haven't you reported your concerns?

I am. It is quite complicated finding files from 15 years ago and, funnily enough, not something I want to spend all my time focusing on.

I am also trying to track down the Australian GP who assaulted me when I was 18. Feel free to judge me for not going after the guy with a sunglasses stall at a stopover near Singapore. There's only so much I can do on my own and I have a fucking life to live in the meantime.

 

[ymu]

Coley. Don't harass ymu. At least say 'given the recent blah, have you thought about reporting him?'

Edit:

Or, I wonder how you would feel about seeing a solicitor / pressing charges/ going on the Jeremy Ky writing to Jenni Murray?

Thank you for noticing the harrassment. Been creeping me out for weeks.

 

[existentialist]

Can't do quotes on this stupid thing, but given the recent encouragement to report abuse, even what is called 'historical abuse' why haven't you reported your concerns?

Unfair question. The fact you feel it's one you can even ask suggests a lack of understanding of the situation.

 

[purenarcotic]

Can't do quotes on this stupid thing, but given the recent encouragement to report abuse, even what is called 'historical abuse' why haven't you reported your concerns?

That's quite a cunty thing to say tbh, and doesn't show a lot of empathy or understanding of the emotions and difficulties surrounding reporting abuse.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not sure. The physical domination involved in rape is itself a violent assertion of power, or a power-laden act of violence. Does the sexual arousal provoke the violence, or does the violence provoke the sexual arousal. Or are the two so intertwined that they need to be considered as a whole?

I think that's right. When you say that the "physical domination involved in rape is itself a violent assertion of power", you're expressing exactly what I have been attempting to argue. It isn't that there isn't sexual arousal, it's about what the rapist chooses to do about it.

 

[coley]

Thank you for noticing the harrassment. Been creeping me out for weeks.

Pardon me, are you accusing me of harassing you?

 

[ymu]

Unfair question. The fact you feel it's one you can even ask suggests a lack of understanding of the situation.

Unfair seems especially fucking mild to me, from someone who has been questioning the prevalence and seriousness of sexual abuse in some very creepy ways for fucking months.

He's not stupid enough not to know how creepy it is. Makes my fucking skin crawl.

 

[ymu]

Pardon me, are you accusing me of harassing you?

Yes.

 

[coley]

That's quite a cunty thing to say tbh, and doesn't show a lot of empathy or understanding of the emotions and difficulties surrounding reporting abuse.

Sorry, but if I had concerns as she says she has, esp regarding a vulnerable group of children,then I would have thought reporting those concerns/suspicions, even anonymously would have been a priority?

 

[danny la rouge]

Rape and violence against women, as a manifestation of power? I could agree on, physical abuse against children? probably agree also, but sexual abuse involving children? No, I think it is a separate issue.

Why is it separate? Children are very much considered by society to be in second place to adults. We can have debates about the need to discipline children by smacking them, and you'd get many agreeing that it was sometimes necessary to smack. Imagine trying to have that same debate about women or black people. You couldn't even frame the question. It would be bizarre even to ask it.

If you can agree that rape is a manifestation of power over women, why is sexual abuse not a manifestation of power over children? In one we are talking of a man who has an insecure sense of masculinity, and in the other we have and adult who has an insecure sense of maturity. I understand that your problem may well be that, almost by definition, we are talking about sexual arousal in the perpetrator. That brings us back to lbj's earlier post.

 

[existentialist]

Sorry, but if I had concerns as she says she has, esp regarding a vulnerable group of children,then I would have thought reporting those concerns/suspicions, even anonymously would have been a priority?

Which, like I say, doesn't demonstrate much of an understanding of the issues. And, to a survivor of abuse, the slightly accusatory tone of the question is going to feel like a lot more than you might think.

It took me 40 years. I do not take kindly to people demanding of me "why did it take you so long?". It just did: in a world where disclosure was easier/more likely to believed, maybe it would have taken less time. And maybe I'd have disclosed early enough to prevent other people being abused. But it isn't, and I didn't, and no fucker is going to sit on their pedestal and make me feel guilty about that.

And I won't stand idly by and see others judged in the same way, either.