post-modernism, cultural relativity and identity politics - attitudes of progressives

[Jeff Robinson]

Just to illustrate why I think multiculturalism is a more durable concept that some of its critics on here seem to. I live in Leicester and there's a sizable Asian population here. Every year in addition to providing for Chirstmas celebrations, the council also supports other religious festivals like Diwali. There is nothing divisive about it whatsoever. Far from it, people from all walks of life attend the various celebrations and in my experience revel in the cultural diversity that is so integral, and so a defining feature of living here for many of us. Obviously the funding confers a special benefit on the communities that traditionally celebrate Diwali (Hindus, Sikhs and Jains) yet it is something that in my opinion the City benefits from as a whole. This seems to me to be an implementation of multiculturalism that I would consider progressive and worthy of support. Would anybody disagree?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just to illustrate why I think multiculturalism is a more durable concept that some of its critics on here seem to. I live in Leicester and there's a sizable Asian population here. Every year in addition to providing for Chirstmas celebrations, the council also supports other religious festivals like Diwali. There is nothing divisive about it whatsoever. Far from it, people from all walks of life attend the various celebrations and in my experience revel in the cultural diversity that is so integral, and so a defining feature of living here for many of us. Obviously the funding confers a special benefit on the communities that traditionally celebrate Diwali (Hindus, Sikhs and Jains) yet it is something that in my opinion the City benefits from as a whole. This seems to me to be an implementation of multiculturalism that I would consider progressive and worthy of support. Would anybody disagree?

The opposite of separatism. Celebrating diversity and feeling mightily pleased that there is such a diversity to enjoy.

 

[butchersapron]

Just to illustrate why I think multiculturalism is a more durable concept that some of its critics on here seem to. I live in Leicester and there's a sizable Asian population here. Every year in addition to providing for Chirstmas celebrations, the council also supports other religious festivals like Diwali. There is nothing divisive about it whatsoever. Far from it, people from all walks of life attend the various celebrations and in my experience revel in the cultural diversity that is so integral, and so a defining feature of living here for many of us. Obviously the funding confers a special benefit on the communities that traditionally celebrate Diwali (Hindus, Sikhs and Jains) yet it is something that in my opinion the City benefits from as a whole. This seems to me to be an implementation of multiculturalism that I would consider progressive and worthy of support. Would anybody disagree?

You mean the term or the actual got on with real lifed multi-culturalism of most of society?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The opposite of separatism. Celebrating diversity and feeling mightily pleased that there is such a diversity to enjoy.

Exactly, that's why I provided the example, yet it seems to me to also be an illustration of multiculturalism. If it's not multiculturalism, what is it?

 

[articul8]

Obviously the funding confers a special benefit on the communities that traditionally celebrate Diwali (Hindus, Sikhs and Jains). This seems to me to be an implementation of multiculturalism that I would consider progressive and worthy of support. Would anybody disagree?

The point is, who gets to represent the "Hindu" community? How are the interests of working class people in Leicester mediated along racial/ethnic lines, and how does this cut across other forms of identification.

I'd be surprised if anyone on here was attacking diversity per se.

 

[butchersapron]

The opposite of separatism. Celebrating diversity and feeling mightily pleased that there is such a diversity to enjoy.

Exactly, the critics of multi-culturalism support this sort of multi-racialism, their criticisms are designed to foster it. But saying that all nice things are examples of multi-culturalism does violence to the arguments and insults their motivations.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd be surprised if anyone on here was attacking diversity per se.

It's clear to me that nobody on here is attacking diversity. But isn't the harsh truth that certain cultures can live alongside each other more easily than others? When someone can claim, for instance, that their homophobia is part of their culture and so not open to criticism, then there is a problem.

A non-Islam example is a play that was due to be put on in, I think Leicester, whose funding was withdrawn under pressure from Sikh 'community leaders' because it criticised Sikhism. Confused moral compasses are in play here - taking cowardly decisions for fear of causing offence.

 

[articul8]

It's clear to me that nobody on here is attacking diversity. But isn't the harsh truth that certain cultures can live alongside each other more easily than others?

It would be absurd to be totally 100% inclusive - personally I don't think rapists, paedophiles, fascists, junkies who mug old ladies etc.etc. add to "life's rich tapestry".

If you're saying certain ethnicities are culturally more prone to conflict that's another point altogether. Clearly there are historical reasons for tensions between certain ethnic groups. But these aren't eternal features

 

[Das Uberdog]

The point is, who gets to represent the "Hindu" community? How are the interests of working class people in Leicester mediated along racial/ethnic lines, and how does this cut across other forms of identification.

I'd be surprised if anyone on here was attacking diversity per se.

i would imagine the council just offers funding to whichever organisations or associations are planning to put on their pre-existing events... which is probably the best way to ensure a Divali festival is organised tbf. i think the bigger problem is that such investments are in no way incompatible with broader systems in which communal separation isn't endorsed more broadly. separate community centres, social facilities, internal community events - these are the main real manifestations of a multi-cultural policy on a day to day basis

 

[butchersapron]

It would be absurd to be totally 100% inclusive - personally I don't think rapists, paedophiles, fascists, junkies who mug old ladies etc.etc. add to "life's rich tapestry".

Secret fascist.

 

[butchersapron]

i would imagine the council just offers funding to whichever organisations or associations are planning to put on their pre-existing events...

Wonder who they might be and how they got to that position of being officially recognised by the proper authorities.

 

[articul8]

Secret fascist.

maybe I should be with IWCA after all ?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Exactly, the critics of multi-culturalism support this sort of multi-racialism, their criticisms are designed to foster it. But saying that all nice things are examples of multi-culturalism does violence to the arguments and insults their motivations.

I wasn't suggesting that people on here would not support what I was just discussing, I provided the example precisely because I thought they would. Yet at the same time I don't see how what i discussed was not an example of multiculturalism. And I wasn't suggesting that "all nice things are examples of multi-culturalism", merely that there is a progressive kernel to the multiculturalism project. It seems to me that the critics on here are defining multi-culturalism is such a way that only encompasses the reactionary aspects associated with it, which I think is one-sided.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Wonder who they might be and how they got to that position of being officially recognised by the proper authorities.

stitch up between the local Labour Party and the Temple usually i'd imagine! still, they're probably the best candidates to successfully pull off Divali

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It would be absurd to be totally 100% inclusive - personally I don't think rapists, paedophiles, fascists, junkies who mug old ladies etc.etc. add to "life's rich tapestry".

If you're saying certain ethnicities are culturally more prone to conflict that's another point altogether. Clearly there are historical reasons for tensions between certain ethnic groups. But these aren't eternal features

I'm not saying that, no. Ethnicity is generally a crap category, imo. Best avoided entirely. I'm talking about concrete ideas about basic things like a woman's place. These are in conflict in certain areas, and lets make no bones about it, I'm talking among other things about the essentially bicultural towns in northern England where two groups live next to each other but largely don't mix and live very different lives.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The point is, who gets to represent the "Hindu" community? How are the interests of working class people in Leicester mediated along racial/ethnic lines, and how does this cut across other forms of identification.

Well yes, those are the tricky questions of representation and voice that are hardly the sole preserve of multi-culturalism.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not saying that, no. Ethnicity is generally a crap category, imo. Best avoided entirely. I'm talking about concrete ideas about basic things like a woman's place. These are in conflict in certain areas, and lets make no bones about it, I'm talking among other things about the essentially bicultural towns in northern England where two groups live next to each other but largely don't mix and live very different lives.

but yet those same "cultures" in a completely different country/context might not have a problem.

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't suggesting that people on here would not support what I was just discussing, I provided the example precisely because I thought they would. Yet at the same time I don't see how what i discussed was not an example of multiculturalism. And I wasn't suggesting that "all nice things are examples of multi-culturalism", merely that there is a progressive kernel to the multiculturalism project. It seems to me that the critics on here are defining multi-culturalism is such a way that only encompasses the reactionary aspects associated with it, which I think is one-sided.

You define it away as this nice thing - as multi-culturalism, therefore those who disagree with multi-culturalism must be opposed to this. You know that we've talked about a far more encompassing thing that people having a nice afternoon out.

 

[articul8]

I'm not saying that, no. Ethnicity is generally a crap category, imo. Best avoided entirely. I'm talking about concrete ideas about basic things like a woman's place. These are in conflict in certain areas, and lets make no bones about it, I'm talking among other things about the essentially biracial towns in northern England where two groups live next to each other but largely don't mix and live very different lives.

Well, there are questions of this nature that are as divisive within cultures as between them. And certain features of capitalism exaggerate the conflict - so, in part, the attitude to women in some British muslim communities is reinforced in reaction to the sexualisation of young white women. There are common roots to both problems.

 

[frogwoman]

there's no single "muslim attitude to women" though. which i kind of think is what people are getting at. Maybe.

 

[butchersapron]

Well yes, those are the tricky questions of representation and voice that are hardly the sole preserve of multi-culturalism.

NO, but there's a specific three decade long conjunction of specific forces that have produced an official multi-culturalism. Sorry but that's politics - if we all want to talk in just generalities and it's hardly unique to them then let's just bin the thread.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

but yet those same "cultures" in a completely different country/context might not have a problem.

Yes, the context is crucial. In London, Muslims, Hasidic Jews and others live next to each other in areas like Stamford Hill with few problems. But that's London. In London, it's more of a 'melting pot' and it seems to me that the conditions that exist in places like Rochdale don't exist anywhere in London.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

there's no single "muslim attitude to women" though. which i kind of think is what people are getting at. Maybe.

Sure. Ok, take Islam out of it, and call it the Kashmiri attitude towards women. It's couched in religious terms, though.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

You define it away as this nice thing - as multi-culturalism, therefore those who disagree with multi-culturalism must be opposed to this. You know that we've talked about a far more encompassing thing that people having a nice afternoon out.

Nope, I was doing exactly the opposite. I was suggesting that the definition of multiculturalism being worked with was deficient, deliberately one-sided for polemical purposes.

 

[articul8]

there's no single "muslim attitude to women" though. which i kind of think is what people are getting at. Maybe.

Yes - that's what I meant about being as much conflict within cultures as between them. (edited my orginal post, but still not right - will take another go.)

 

[butchersapron]

Nope, I was doing exactly the opposite. I was suggesting that the definition of multiculturalism being worked with was deficient, deliberately one-sided for polemical purposes.

Well, could you show where and why then?

And sorry, you might have intended to do that in that post but all you actually did was show that it easy to fall into facile equations of multi-culturalism with multi-racialism - without examing how the thing you use as your example came about.

 

[frogwoman]

Sure. Ok, take Islam out of it, and call it the Kashmiri attitude towards women. It's couched in religious terms, though.

hmm, ok. although i'd say that still problematic.

i agree completely in that pandering to that sort of shit whatever name you put on it is never going to get you very far. quite the opposite in fact. Not going to earn you a lot of respect among many people in those communities who've been struggling against that shit in their family/their friends for a long time either.

 

[frogwoman]

i just think what we're talking about need a different name. not multiculturalism, i know exactly what you all mean but outside urban75 many people think multi culturalism and multiracialism/diversity mean the same thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

the attitude to women in some British muslim communities is reinforced in reaction to the sexualisation of young white women. There are common roots to both problems.

Sorry, but I think that is complete rubbish. For starters, I contest the idea that there is such a problem as 'the sexualisation of young white women'. If teenage girls want to wear short skirts and high heels to go out on a Friday night, that is entirely up to them, and not a 'problem' at all.

 

[butchersapron]

i just think what we're talking about need a different name. not multiculturalism, i know exactly what you all mean but outside urban75 many people think multi culturalism and multiracialism/diversity mean the same thing.

So why can't we explain to them what we mean in the same way we have done on here? Are the wider public behind us in consciousness or something?