post-modernism, cultural relativity and identity politics - attitudes of progressives

[butchersapron]

I'd agree with this except on two points. Firstly, I don't think the BNP are anything to do with multiculturalism on any understanding of the term: their ends are not some sort of managed 'diversity' but a more ethnically/culturally/religiously homogeneous Britain (though I guess in a sense all nationalists could be understood as 'global multiculturalists': the nation state being the unit of division)

Secondly, I'm not sure that multiculturalism "is so tarnished and discredited that it can't really be used" - certainly no more than 'democracy', 'socialism' or 'social justice': all of which have been dragged through the shit. For me a progressive multicultural agenda would be one which, in the overarching context of working class unity and solidarity, would recognise that ethnicity is one aspect of an individual's/group's subjectivity to be negotiated within a given polity.

The BNP are pure multi-culturalists. Separate but equal - but on a national level. That doesn't contradict but instead argues for why you think they're not coming from a multi-cultural approach. Odd.

 

[butchersapron]

Secondly, I'm not sure that multiculturalism "is so tarnished and discredited that it can't really be used" - certainly no more than 'democracy', 'socialism' or 'social justice': all of which have been dragged through the shit too. For me a progressive multicultural agenda would be one which, in the overarching context of working class unity and solidarity, would recognise that ethnicity is one aspect of an individual's/group's subjectivity to be negotiated within a given polity.

Doesn't matter what it would mean for you - and you're conflating the use of the term with a real content. It's what it means politically that counts. Your prefered use is not what it means politically, nor - i think - can it be used a a flag to rally around a set of views like the above.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The BNP are pure multi-culturalists. Separate but equal - but on a national level. That doesn't contradict but instead argues for why you think they're not coming from a multi-cultural approach. Odd.

I did note that, it's just that multiculturalism is used almost exclusively to describe an arrangement within the context of a nation state and in that context the BNP are uncontroversially anti-multiculturalist, though I appreciate the observation about the symmetry of the reasoning structure between the BNP's nationalism and essentialist varieties of multiculturalism.

Doesn't matter what it would mean for you - and you're conflating the use of the term with a real content. It's what it means politically that counts. Your prefered use is not what it means politically, nor - i think - can it be used a a flag to rally around a set of views like the above.

I think you're imbuing the term with more stability than it actually has. I bet, for example, you could go out and ask somebody 'do you support multiculturalism' and 'do you support religious schools' and they might say yes to the former and no to the latter (or vice versa). What multiculturalism means politically is still a fairly open question imo.

 

[butchersapron]

I think that you're wrong - it's gone, and it's gone because of the sort of official multi-culturalism from the state that people see and fight. It's never actually lived as an organising principle beyond the people mentioned in the OP - and used as a sticking plaster for the gap between their principles and the w/c.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The BNP are pure multi-culturalists. Separate but equal - but on a national level.

I don't really get this. Surely the BNP would, if given the chance, do the same as the FN have done in France when they've taken control of councils - where they have denied state funding to any cultural activity deemed not to be 'French'. That is separate but not equal.

 

[love detective]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But that's separatist. And separatists allying themselves with separatists on the 'other' side. It's confusing to call that multiculturalist, imo.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't really get this. Surely the BNP would, if given the chance, do the same as the FN have done in France when they've taken control of councils - where they have denied state funding to any cultural activity deemed not to be 'French'. That is separate but not equal.

Yes, that's multi-culturalism. That the logic of official top down multi-culturalism played out.

 

[love detective]

But that's separatist. And separatists allying themselves with separatists on the 'other' side. It's confusing to call that multiculturalist, imo.

the multiculturalism that is being discussed here is separatism

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't really get this. Surely the BNP would, if given the chance, do the same as the FN have done in France when they've taken control of councils - where they have denied state funding to any cultural activity deemed not to be 'French'. That is separate but not equal.

Yes. Multiculturalism - separate and not equal.

 

[butchersapron]

Multi-culturalism, you'e doing it wrong.

Come on, we're not making daft points here, they need serious responses.

 

[Fedayn]

This might potentially sound like a stupid question, but what exactly do people understand by the term 'multiculturalism', and what is the alternative?

Well it's certainly not a 'fixed' term on what is perceiced as the 'Left'. A while back during the SSP 'happy phase' there was a meeting on mutli-culturalism. What became increasingly obvious was the inter-changeability, both deliberate and not so of 'multi-culturalism' and 'multi-racialism'. The two were being used to define the same thing and yet, imho, were and are not the same things at all. The accusations that flowed as a result of a small number of us questioning the former and questioning the Left championing state/official/top down multi-culturalism made this clear. No-one questioned, opposed, rejected or bemoaned the muti-racial society we clearly have, yet by criticising multi-culturalism you'd think we were donning a black/brown shirt and thinking of a March on Cafe Roma. Anyone who questioned it was accused both overtly and covertly of being a racist and with a side order of Islamophobia. The inability of the Left to defines the term correctly is still a major problem.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Multi-culturalism, you'e doing it wrong.

Come on, we're not making daft points here, they need serious responses.

I don't know what you mean by that. There have been good points made on this thread, but this term multiculturalism clearly means different things to different people. That's a problem that needs sorting out, imo.

 

[love detective]

i'd say the problem that needs sorting out is much deeper than that

 

[butchersapron]

Well it's certainly not a 'fixed' term on what is perceiced as the 'Left'. A while back during the SSP 'happy phase' there was a meeting on mutli-culturalism. What became increasingly obvious was the inter-changeability, both deliberate and not so of 'multi-culturalism' and 'multi-racialism'. The two were being used to define the same thing and yet, imho, were and are not the same things at all. The accusations that flowed as a result of a small number of us questioning the former and questioning the Left championing state/official/top down multi-culturalism made this clear. No-one questioned, opposed, rejected or bemoaned the muti-racial society we clearly have, yet by criticising multi-culturalism you'd think we were donning a black/brown shirt and thinking of a March on Cafe Roma. Anyone who questioned it was accused both overtly and covertly of being a racist and with a side order of Islamophobia. The inability of the Left to defines the term correctly is still a major problem.

Yep. It's a gaping wound that idtiots like the EDL feed on.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i'd say the problem that needs sorting out is much deeper than that

Of course it is. But in order to talk about it without talking past each other, you need to look at what different people take certain words to mean.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course it is. But in order to talk about it without talking past each other, you need to look at what different people take certain words to mean.

Let's be honest - no one is talking past each other. We all know damn well what we mean. Deliberate misunderstandings (see rovers UB40 intervention and articul8s attempt to parasite on it) aside. We do all know. And we're not supermen with some special understanding - this is how its viewed socially in my experience (and that of my culture FOREVER!!!!)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well it's certainly not a 'fixed' term on what is perceiced as the 'Left'. A while back during the SSP 'happy phase' there was a meeting on mutli-culturalism. What became increasingly obvious was the inter-changeability, both deliberate and not so of 'multi-culturalism' and 'multi-racialism'. The two were being used to define the same thing and yet, imho, were and are not the same things at all. The accusations that flowed as a result of a small number of us questioning the former and questioning the Left championing state/official/top down multi-culturalism made this clear. No-one questioned, opposed, rejected or bemoaned the muti-racial society we clearly have, yet by criticising multi-culturalism you'd think we were donning a black/brown shirt and thinking of a March on Cafe Roma. Anyone who questioned it was accused both overtly and covertly of being a racist and with a side order of Islamophobia. The inability of the Left to defines the term correctly is still a major problem.

Yes, good post.

And that takes me to the uncomfortable things that people often feel afraid to say for fear of being accused of being racist. The earlier posts about the anti-war movement get to the heart of it. Separate entrances for men/women, partitions at meetings - these are things that many of us would reject outright as wrong. I don't respect 'your' opinion about women's rights or homosexuality or whatever. These are rights that were hard-won and that many of us would like - demand even - to be universal.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Let's be honest - no one is talking past each other. We all know damn well what we mean.

You are right. But on here, we are mostly people who broadly share the same opinion on this, I think.

 

[butchersapron]

Just in passing:

Scientists have discovered that bees prefer working class gardens for their habitat.
The team from Leeds University made the discovery after studying 24 gardens over two years.
They had expected affluent gardens to have more bees because they tend to have greater plant diversity

 

[articul8]

the multiculturalism that is being discussed here is separatism

There's a difference between liberal multiculturalism (different communities alongside each other) and political separatism (total separation)

 

[articul8]

Just in passing:

drone solidarity?

 

[Das Uberdog]

there's still a bogus concentration upon preservation though, which always actively encourages outright seperation

 

[littlebabyjesus]

there's still a bogus concentration upon preservation though, which always actively encourages outright seperation

In Wales, there has been a very strong concentration on preservation wrt the Welsh language. Without it, the language would probably have died out 50 years ago. With it, the numbers speaking the language are on the increase.

It's not straightforward, I don't think, because without some degree of 'preservation', the dominant culture can extinguish a minority culture.

 

[butchersapron]

There's a difference between liberal multiculturalism (different communities alongside each other) and political separatism (total separation)

Is there a missing third term here? Is there a missing comment about what the two above share in common? Is there a missing comment about how the mess of the two has effected w/c communities and what is now seen as possible politics?

 

[Fedayn]

There's a difference between liberal multiculturalism (different communities alongside each other) and political separatism (total separation)

The former reinforces separation. Reinforces difference and makes that difference a fixed part of peoples lives. They are defined on their difference. It feeds the seperatism that's surely pretty evident.

 

[SpineyNorman]

there's still a bogus concentration upon preservation though, which always actively encourages outright seperation

And the emphasis on preservation allows the most conservative elements in these "communities" to set the agenda.

 

[manny-p]

Just in passing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17839642

And they form closely bonded, egalitarian societies, based on social structures and rules. Communities of cockroaches are even capable of making collective decisions for the greater good.

The real communists.

 

[articul8]

The former reinforces separation. Reinforces difference and makes that difference a fixed part of peoples lives. They are defined on their difference. It feeds the seperatism that's surely pretty evident.

Yes, racist separatism is parasitic upon (and reinforced by) liberal politics of difference.

 

[frogwoman]

in my experience a lot of people do think the term multiculturalism means the same as multiracialism. that might just be me tho