Possible vaccines/treatment(s) for Coronavirus

[Epona]

Not really, but you have a pattern of accusing people of picking on you when they aren’t and it really grates on me. I agree with you that washing hands regularly is still important, the evidence suggests it’s not quite as important as it was once thought to be. There is all sorts of half truths and misinformation going around, so of course people are going to robustly ask for evidence and challenge things they disagree with. That is not the same as a personal attack. Walk away, take a breath, give your gorgeous cats a cuddle. Nobody is attacking you.

If people don't want me to feel like I am being picked on then they shouldn't quote old posts of mine and have a go at me where everyone else weighs in. What the hell am I supposed to think when this happens? The post has been there completely uncommented on and without criticism for nearly a month. Then it is quoted by someone and other people start joining in. It isn't so much the fact that it got quoted, it is the fact that it has been there for a while so all the people that weighed in once it was quoted could have said something sooner rather than piling in on the back of someone else. Of course I feel picked on.

 

[Supine]

If people don't want me to feel like I am picking on them then they shouldn't quote old posts of mine and have a go at me where everyone else weighs in. What the hell am I supposed to think when this happens? The post has been there completely uncommented on and without criticism for nearly a month. Then it is quoted by someone and other people start joining in. Of course I feel picked on.

Your supposed to think this is a discussion forum and people may discuss stuff you post. Even if it was last month. I can't see anyone picking on you.

 

[LDC]

If people don't want me to feel like I am being picked on then they shouldn't quote old posts of mine and have a go at me where everyone else weighs in. What the hell am I supposed to think when this happens? The post has been there completely uncommented on and without criticism for nearly a month. Then it is quoted by someone and other people start joining in. Of course I feel picked on.

Maye step away now and stop making this thread about you.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Epona, you are not being picked on, scifisam was just catching-up on the thread & responded. I remember seeing your post at the time, and thinking actually I think there's been a shift in opinion over fomite transmission, but I was scrolling on the phone, so didn't reply at the time, as it's fiddley trying to find information & post the links.

This morning I am on the laptop, and as it had come up again, I responded, but as I was typing, scifisam posted a similar reply & link anyway.

You are, of course, right the media did make a big thing about fomite transmission at the start, although this has fizzled out somewhat more recently, but they & the government continue with the hand washing advice, simply because there still could be some small risk, and keeping hands clean can't do any harm, unless you take it to the extremes like maomao's poor wife.

It's been a fast moving year, when it comes to the scientists understanding this bloody virus, and none of us can be expected to keep up with every single bit of new research and information as it changes, and that includes both you & I, but by people pulling together new information and posting it on here, we can all learn and keep up with it more, than from the snippets the media tend to provide.

 

[Epona]

Your supposed to think this is a discussion forum and people may discuss stuff you post. Even if it was last month. I can't see anyone picking on you.

"You're"

HTH

 

[Epona]

Epona, you are not being picked on, scifisam was just catching-up on the thread & responded. I remember seeing your post at the time, and thinking actually I think there's been a shift in opinion over fomite transmission, but I was scrolling on the phone, so didn't reply at the time, as it's fiddley trying to find information & post the links.

This morning I am on the laptop, and as it had come up again, I responded, but as I am was typing, scifisam posted a similar reply & link anyway.

You are, of course, right the media did make a big thing about fomite transmission at the start, although this has fizzled out somewhat more recently, but they & the government continue with the hand washing advice, simply because there still could be some small risk, and keeping hands clean can't do any harm, unless you take it to the extremes like maomao's poor wife.

It's been a fast moving year, when it comes to the scientists understanding this bloody virus, and none of us can be expected to keep up with every single bit of new research and information as it changes, and that includes both you & I, but by people pulling together new information and posting it on here, we can all learn and keep up with it more, than from the snippets the media tend to provide.

Do you not think it might have been helpful to me at that time if you had given more up to date information rather than just thinking I am being a prat and doing something else on your phone?

I am not trying to make this thread about me, I am wondering why it ended up about me and the best thing that can happen now is for people to leave me the goddam fuck alone and stop telling me what a bad person I am, because that makes me feel the need to defend myself. (abuse survivor reaction)

 

[purenarcotic]

Oh come the fuck on. Nobody thinks you are a bad person ffs. Two people asked you for some evidence on a thread about a science based subject. God forbid you should google something so you accuse people of picking on you instead. You weren’t being asked to defend yourself, you were being asked for evidence of your assertion about hand washing. That’s it. Nobody wants you dead, nobody wants you off the thread, nobody wants anything bad to happen to you. They just disagreed with you. People are entitled to do that. On a discussion board.

 

[Epona]

Sorry I didn't see where only scientists are allowed to post. Which type of scientists are allowed?

"Evidence of my assertion about hand washing" OMFG really?

 

[Supine]

Boring

 

[AnnaKarpik]

In other news...

Marr just said the 'new one dose strategy'. The BBC really need to sort their journalism out. That is basic misinformation.

Been hearing the second dose referred to as a 'booster' shot yesterday, R4.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Do you not think it might have been helpful to me at that time if you had given more up to date information rather than just thinking I am being a prat and doing something else on your phone?

I didn't think you were a prat, why would you think that?

I rarely view urban on my phone, and it's even rarer for me to reply on the phone, as I have thick fingers and struggle with a tiny keypad. I remember scrolling the morning after you had posted, whilst waiting for a cab, it was just a quick look at urban to fill a few minutes, I didn't go on to do anything else on my phone.

As I said in my last post, it's been a fast moving situation, and most people can't be expected to keep up with every new bit of information, especially if it's not wildly reported by the media, that doesn't make any of them prats.

The prats are the covid deniers & conspiracy loons, of which you are not one.

 

[Aladdin]

Okaaaay... That doesn't align with anything I've read about fomite transmission for covid 19. There's no "magic" involved. Your personal opinion isn't a cite, sorry.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=featured_home

And...


Therefore, transmission may also occur indirectly through touching surfaces in the immediate environment or objects contaminated with virus from an infected person (e.g. stethoscope or thermometer), followed by touching the mouth, nose, or eyes.

Despite consistent evidence as to SARS-CoV-2 contamination of surfaces and the survival of the virus on certain surfaces, there are no specific reports which have directly demonstrated fomite transmission. People who come into contact with potentially infectious surfaces often also have close contact with the infectious person, making the distinction between respiratory droplet and fomite transmission difficult to discern. However, fomite transmission is considered a likely mode of transmission for SARS-CoV-2, given consistent findings about environmental contamination in the vicinity of infected cases and the fact that other coronaviruses and respiratory viruses can transmit this way.

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2: implications for infection prevention precautions

Scientific Brief

www.who.int

They are cleaning surfaces and using uv robotics to "deep clean" surfaces in hospitals ...for this reason..
Also...covid19 survives very well in cold temperatures. It's not unreasonable to think that if someone with the virus coughs on packaging that the next person to pick it up within a certain time frame will come in contact with the virus.

This is why classrooms and corridors here are being fogged every day. Door handles and surfaces are being disinfected 3 to 6 times a day. It was known 3 months ago that the virus stays viable on stacked books for up to 8 days. Libraries were informed at the time.

 

[teuchter]

I think the main reason there's still a lot of places emphasising their surface-cleaning routines is because it's a visible thing they can do to demonstrate they are doing "something". It's easier to clean surfaces than it is to entirely redesign a ventilation system.

I still use the hand sanitizer when I go into small shops. It's not because I think it does anything much to reduce transmission, it's only as a courtesy to anyone working in there who might feel anxious if I didn't. Performative hygiene, is that the term?

Unfortunately the emphasis on surfaces gives false reassurance, I think. A pub has hand sanitiser and wipes the tables and pretends to be "covid safe" but it's not.

I think there's been quite a big failure in the public health messaging to make people understand the ventilation thing.

 

[Epona]

So at which point was hand sanitising decided useless and by whom? Because that info hasn't filtered down to most of us yet.

I don't have an issue with ventilation since the only places I have been in the last year are In My Home, Outdoors, and brief forays to the supermarket or chemist.

 

[prunus]

So at which point was hand sanitising decided useless and by whom? Because that info hasn't filtered down to most of us yet.

I don't have an issue with ventilation since the only places I have been in the last year are In My Home, Outdoors, and brief forays to the supermarket or chemist.

It’s not been decided as useless, it’s just that it’s become apparent that it’s (or was) not quite as important a method of transmission suppression as was first thought.

I caveat that with was because my feeling is that, from a precautionary standpoint if nothing else, we should be treating the new variant, which clearly has different (and not yet fully understood) transmission characteristics, as almost a ‘new’ pandemic, at least until we have some more info. For my part I have resurrected my protocols from pandemic 1 (given up in about May) - eg leaving deliveries untouched in the hall for 24 hours if possible, sticking takeaway containers in the oven at 80C for ten minutes, etc, for the time being.

To stress: this is almost certainly overkill, but it’s not a huge hardship, and I’d prefer to data to come out and say I’ve been doing it unnecessarily than, well, picking up the virus I guess!

 

[cupid_stunt]

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=featured_home

View attachment 246809



And...


Therefore, transmission may also occur indirectly through touching surfaces in the immediate environment or objects contaminated with virus from an infected person (e.g. stethoscope or thermometer), followed by touching the mouth, nose, or eyes.

Despite consistent evidence as to SARS-CoV-2 contamination of surfaces and the survival of the virus on certain surfaces, there are no specific reports which have directly demonstrated fomite transmission. People who come into contact with potentially infectious surfaces often also have close contact with the infectious person, making the distinction between respiratory droplet and fomite transmission difficult to discern. However, fomite transmission is considered a likely mode of transmission for SARS-CoV-2, given consistent findings about environmental contamination in the vicinity of infected cases and the fact that other coronaviruses and respiratory viruses can transmit this way.

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2: implications for infection prevention precautions

Scientific Brief

www.who.int

They are cleaning surfaces and using uv robotics to "deep clean" surfaces in hospitals ...for this reason..
Also...covid19 survives very well in cold temperatures. It's not unreasonable to think that if someone with the virus coughs on packaging that the next person to pick it up within a certain time frame will come in contact with the virus.

This is why classrooms and corridors here are being fogged every day. Door handles and surfaces are being disinfected 3 to 6 times a day. It was known 3 months ago that the virus stays viable on stacked books for up to 8 days. Libraries were informed at the time.

TBF, that article is dated 16th April 2020, much more research has been done since, as per the links to The Lancet posted on the pervious page, hence the change in thinking on any possible risk from surface transmission, outside of hospitals the risk is considered to be low.

 

[Aladdin]

TBF, that article is dated 16th April 2019, much more research has been done since, as per the links to The Lancet posted on the pervious page, hence the change in thinking on any possible risk from surface transmission, outside of hospitals the risk is considered to be low.

Actually it is dated April 2020 ...
There is atill a risk.
And with a new variant wafting about and cases on the increase its worth taking note that the virus still can be viable on surfaces.
The original research is still valid.

Also the Lancet study was based on two sites in hospital. Both areas would be cleaned daily a number of times. One area...ICU would have deep cleaning carried out regularly. So the study doesn't actually look at viral viability on surfaces in the community at all.

 

[Epona]

So if surface transmission is not a thing any more can we have some links to research into that please? Because most of us have been fucking wiping all our groceries down (reminded me of some of my lowest points as someone with OCD) since March and we don't have that info.

 

[teuchter]

By the way the surface transmission thing was never treated very logically in the early stages anyway, in my opinion. There was a lot of messaging about washing hands. And yet there was no direct advice about whether we should worry about things like stuff brought back from the supermarket. Takeaway food was allowed throughout the first lockdown - which didn't make any sense to me, if surface transmission was a real worry.

 

[Aladdin]

By the way the surface transmission thing was never treated very logically in the early stages anyway, in my opinion. There was a lot of messaging about washing hands. And yet there was no direct advice about whether we should worry about things like stuff brought back from the supermarket. Takeaway food was allowed throughout the first lockdown - which didn't make any sense to me, if surface transmission was a real worry.

Dunno. Over here they got schools to buy fogging machines and ramped up cleaning. All door handles and surfaces were to be cleaned at regular intervals. Basically any surface that a hand would regularly touch.

Now they're saying the new variant is potentially a lot more transmissable and that it effects children more so than the original virus.
Its a new game now.

I'll stick with cleaning surfaces and ensuring that what I touch has been wiped with a dettol wipe. Including my shopping.

 

[teuchter]

So if surface transmission is not a thing any more can we have some links to research into that please? Because most of us have been fucking wiping all our groceries down (reminded me of some of my lowest points as someone with OCD) since March and we don't have that info.

A link was posted on the previous page:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30561-2/fulltext

It's not the case that it's necessarily "not a thing" anymore, it's just that it appears that transmission through the air is much more significant.

You're quite right that this just hasn't been communicated at all effectively through public health messaging. There really ought to be things like public info films with graphic depictions of aerosols spreading through the air, to help people visualise what is liable to be happening. Early on there was that study where they visualised runners breathing out clouds of infected air... and it seemed to get some attention in the media. There should be films depicting that sort of thing in pubs and shops. Maybe there are and I've missed them. It would probably help with emphasising the reason for wearing masks too.

 

[Epona]

I have no issue with wearing masks or anything like that, I've barely left the house since March last year in fact - I am just a bit stressed about all the time and steriwipes that I wasted swabbing down my fucking groceries (based on best information at the time) if that is now irrelvant.

 

[teuchter]

Dunno. Over here they got schools to buy fogging machines and ramped up cleaning. All door handles and surfaces were to be cleaned at regular intervals. Basically any surface that a hand would regularly touch.

What are "regular intervals"?

Seems like you'd need to do it in between every time someone touched it to really make much difference. I've never really understood the point of cleaning bus and train surfaces down each night. Maybe you stop the last few passengers of the previous day infecting the first few passengers the next morning - if the virus can even survive that long. The principle risk surely is two people touching the surface quite soon after one another and daily cleaning won't help that. Best for everyone just to try not to touch anything.

 

[teuchter]

I have no issue with wearing masks or anything like that, I've barely left the house since March last year in fact - I am just a bit stressed about all the time and steriwipes that I wasted swabbing down my fucking groceries (based on best information at the time) if that is now irrelvant.

This is not a criticism - I wiped down groceries for a short time too, and it might well be that it does reduce your risk - but I'm interested, did you do that as a result of what you saw as "official" advice or as a result of your own research?

 

[existentialist]

Dunno. Over here they got schools to buy fogging machines and ramped up cleaning. All door handles and surfaces were to be cleaned at regular intervals. Basically any surface that a hand would regularly touch.

Now they're saying the new variant is potentially a lot more transmissable and that it effects children more so than the original virus.
Its a new game now.

I'll stick with cleaning surfaces and ensuring that what I touch has been wiped with a dettol wipe. Including my shopping.

I suppose my (slightly cynical) approach goes something like..."I can't know for certain that this handle/surface/object has been adequately cleaned, therefore I will treat it as contaminated, and clean myself after contact".

I was responsible for putting together a risk assessment and policy to allow a counselling centre to operate (despite my strong reservations about it doing so), and it very quickly became obvious that, in terms of cleaning and disinfection, it was asking a lot to expect people to do this adequately. Indeed, I had quite a row about a statement in the draft I was given that said "Practitioners are responsible for ensuring that clients have cleaned and disinfected toilet areas after use" - that just wasn't going to be able to be policed or guaranteed.

So I've generally taken the line that everything I touch outside is potentially contaminated, and I need to deal with what I am in control of, which boils down to handwashing or sanitising. I am considering resurrecting the surgical gloves for stuff where I'm likely to come into contact with possibly-contaminated surfaces and the opportunities to wash/sanitise are not there.

It sounds more paranoid than it is!

 

[cupid_stunt]

Actually it is dated April 2020 ...
There is atill a risk.
And with a new variant wafting about and cases on the increase its worth taking note that the virus still can be viable on surfaces.
The original research is still valid.

Also the Lancet study was based on two sites in hospital. Both areas would be cleaned daily a number of times. One area...ICU would have deep cleaning carried out regularly. So the study doesn't actually look at viral viability on surfaces in the community at all.

Yes, of course, I meant 2020, I was thinking last year, and not awake enough to remember we're in 2020 now.

The link I posted to The Lancet did discus spread in the community.

A 2020 literature review8 included most of the studies I have cited here (and others), but adds no new research, and in my view, does not critically evaluate previously published studies. I am not disputing the findings of these studies, only the applicability to real life. For example, in the studies that used a sample of 107, 106, and 104 particles of infectious virus on a small surface area,1, 2, 3 these concentrations are a lot higher than those in droplets in real-life situations, with the amount of virus actually deposited on surfaces likely to be several orders of magnitude smaller.5 Hence, a real-life situation is better represented in the work of Dowell and colleagues7 in which no viable virus was found on fomites.

In my opinion, the chance of transmission through inanimate surfaces is very small, and only in instances where an infected person coughs or sneezes on the surface, and someone else touches that surface soon after the cough or sneeze (within 1–2 h). I do not disagree with erring on the side of caution, but this can go to extremes not justified by the data. Although periodically disinfecting surfaces and use of gloves are reasonable precautions especially in hospitals, I believe that fomites that have not been in contact with an infected carrier for many hours do not pose a measurable risk of transmission in non-hospital settings. A more balanced perspective is needed to curb excesses that become counterproductive.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30561-2/fulltext

 

[Epona]

This is not a criticism - I wiped down groceries for a short time too, and it might well be that it does reduce your risk - but I'm interested, did you do that as a result of what you saw as "official" advice or as a result of your own research?

Because it was what everyone else on urban was doing at the time and we were talking about it here on Urban. You can try to be revisionist about it and say it didn't happen if you like I suppose. I wasn't the only one doing it though.

 

[Boudicca]

There should be films depicting that sort of thing in pubs and shops. Maybe there are and I've missed them. It would probably help with emphasising the reason for wearing masks too.

The El Pais article which has appeared here a few times is a nice clear explanation:

A room, a bar and a classroom: how the coronavirus is spread through the air

The risk of contagion is highest in indoor spaces but can be reduced by applying all available measures to combat infection via aerosols. Here is an overview of the likelihood of infection in three everyday scenarios, based on the safety measures used and the length of exposure

english.elpais.com

 

[Aladdin]

This is not a criticism - I wiped down groceries for a short time too, and it might well be that it does reduce your risk - but I'm interested, did you do that as a result of what you saw as "official" advice or as a result of your own research?

Over here the HSE lists surface transmission as potential infection risk.
Even up to 3 days ago.

How COVID-19 is spread

COVID-19 (coronavirus) is spread in sneeze or cough droplets. Read more about how the virus can spread from person to person.

www2.hse.ie

I'd be very surprised if the NHS was doing otherwise?

 

[Boudicca]

I only wiped my groceries down once or twice at the beginning. I stopped because a) I read that although it was scientifical possible, it was highly unlikely that you would catch covid from touching things, b) I lived (past tense!) in a low Covid area, and c) I'm lazy.

Now my ritual is that I always sanitise my hands at the entrance to the supermarket, again once I am back in the car (and before I take my mask off and scratch my nose), and then I wash my hands after I have unpacked my groceries. This is enough for me.