Possible vaccines/treatment(s) for Coronavirus

[existentialist]

I hear you. I don't thank god for anything, I thank the scientists for their expertise and work.

I also thank the scientists for, despite having grown up in an era where science was monetised and seen increasingly in terms of what it can put in someone's pocket, they were prepared to pursue their passions, often in thankless fields, to the point that they could deliver on a challenge like this. There's a lot to be said for bloody-mindedness.

 

[Badgers]

 

[scifisam]

I think one of the things we need to remember about transmission is that the virus survives on certain surfaces (especially cold ones) - so having a vaccine will not necessarily prevent ALL forms of spread - yes it seems likely that it will prevent spread if you yourself having been vaccinated and therefore not being ill cough on someone - the spray from your cough is probably safe. Similarly, if you have been vaccinated and someone with Covid coughs on you or on something you handle, then you are significantly less likely to become ill.

BUT if someone who has Covid coughs all over the frozen pizza cabinet of your local supermarket and you handle the pizzas and then handle something else, there is a strong chance that even if you have been vaccinated, you will have spread infectious droplets from the pizzas to whatever you touched next (the cola bottles in the supermarket, your partner's hand, your child's face etc.) increasing the risk for anyone who has not yet been vaccinated - so there will still be a need for good hygiene practices and distancing for that reason. At least for a good amount of time.

Can you provide a link for that, please?

I mean, good hygiene practices should be encouraged, but other than that, I'm not sure what you're saying.

 

[Epona]

Really? It's not rocket science. Let me make it simpler. If someone with coronavirus hawks up a load of coronavirus infected phlegm (or just saliva droplets from their cough) all over the contents of a freezer cabinet in the supermarket where the virus may survive for several days alive and I go pick up a pizza, put it back, and then handle other stuff in the supermarket without sanitising my hands in between, then my immune status only matters in terms of me myself getting ill - it doesn't magically kill any virus that I may have picked up on my hands from the freezer cabinet and spread to tins of beans, bottles of cola, the button on the pedestrian crossing, handrails on the bus etc.

It might be easier to visualise if you imagine that coronavirus infected droplets as like putting your hand in wet paint and spreading it around the place when you touch other things with that wet paint on your hands. Just because you didn't get infected doesn't mean you aren't spreading it around via contact. This is where handwashing is fantastic!

This is how the majority of colds/flu etc spreads, it isn't a new thing.

 

[scifisam]

Really? It's not rocket science. Let me make it simpler. If someone with coronavirus hawks up a load of coronavirus infected phlegm all over the contents of a freezer cabinet in the supermarket where the virus may survive for several days alive and I go pick up a pizza, put it back, and then handle other stuff in the supermarket without sanitising my hands in between, then my immune status only matters in terms of me myself getting ill - it doesn't magically kill any virus that I may have picked up on my hands from the freezer cabinet and spread to tins of beans, bottles of cola, the button on the pedestrian crossing, handrails on the bus etc.

Okaaaay... That doesn't align with anything I've read about fomite transmission for covid 19. There's no "magic" involved. Your personal opinion isn't a cite, sorry.

 

[Epona]

OK so if you have coronavirus and cough all over something and then someone else touches what you just coughed over and then touches their face they must be totally safe, by your reckoning.

 

[Epona]

Or if person A with coronavirus coughs over something, person B touches that something and gets person A's saliva on their hands. Person B is vaccinated but they then go shake hands with person C who isn't vaccinated without washing their hands.

 

[Epona]

I think I must have just been explaining what I meant poorly for it not to be understood.

 

[scifisam]

OK so if you have coronavirus and cough all over something and then someone else touches what you just coughed over and then touches their face they must be totally safe, by your reckoning.

Nah, if it were that quick - someone coughs on something, then someone touches it straight away - then possibly it could transmit. Even then the studies say it's unlikely. It's not transmitted that way.

After several days, it's even less likely.

If it transmitted like that, we'd be way more fucked than we are now.

 

[Supine]

Vaccination reduces the number of people who can potentially 'cough all over the freezer food'.

 

[Epona]

Vaccination reduces the number of people who can potentially 'cough all over the freezer food'.

Yes indeed, the higher percentage of the population who are vaccinated the better, obviously.

I didn't expect to be ripped apart for suggesting that people who had been vaccinated still ought to wash their hands regularly however.

 

[Epona]

Also there was plenty of advice early on about using antibac or alcohol based cleaner on food packaging when it had been delivered or picked up from the supermarket, was all that a complete waste of time then?

(Bear in mind that COVID cases are higher now in my borough than they were during the first peak, excuse me for wanting to be more careful rather than blasé about it)

 

[scifisam]

Yes indeed, the higher percentage of the population who are vaccinated the better, obviously.

I didn't expect to be ripped apart for suggesting that people who had been vaccinated still ought to wash their hands regularly however.

You weren't ripped apart. One person, me, asked for a link, and I meant it genuinely. I'm pre-disposed to think that fomite transmission is unlikely, based on what I've read before, but information changes all the time, and I want to know what that information is.

And your "suggestion" was not that people should wash their hands regularly. You said that frozen pizza boxes could still transmit the virus. What I questioned was that fomite transmission was as big a factor as you claimed.

I'd still like to know if you actually have any credible links saying that fomite transmission occurs.

 

[Epona]

You weren't ripped apart. One person, me, asked for a link, and I meant it genuinely. I'm pre-disposed to think that fomite transmission is unlikely, based on what I've read before, but information changes all the time, and I want to know what that information is.

And your "suggestion" was not that people should wash their hands regularly. You said that frozen pizza boxes could still transmit the virus. What I questioned was that fomite transmission was as big a factor as you claimed.

I'd still like to know if you actually have any credible links saying that fomite transmission occurs.

I wasn't aware that fomite transmission DIDN'T occur, because everything I have read in the news about washing your hands and sanitising between touching items in the supermarket indicates that it does.

Please provide a link that proves there is no fomite transmission, because that goes against everything I have heard so far.

I am really sorry if you misinterpreted or misunderstood my post, I do have significant communication issues and I am feeling really picked on right now.

 

[scifisam]

I wasn't aware that fomite transmission DIDN'T occur, because everything I have read in the news about washing your hands and sanitising between touching items in the supermarket indicates that it does.

Please provide a link that proves there is no fomite transmission, because that goes against everything I have heard so far.

I am really sorry if you misinterpreted or misunderstood my post, I do have significant communication issues and I am feeling really picked on right now.

I'm sorry if you're feeling picked on. I'm not sure why for this particular thread, but I understand the feeling.

We could get into a cite war, especially since you made the assertion that covid lives on even frozen surfaces, so really it's down to you to provide proof, not me. But this is the real world, and we both want people to actually know stuff.

Anyway, OK, here's one example of scientists saying that fomite transmission is neligible:

Low risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission by fomites in real-life conditions

We read with interest the Comment by Emanuel Goldman1 highlighting experiments done under controlled laboratory conditions that suggest persistence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) on inanimate surfaces for days, with potential implications for viral transmission.2...

www.thelancet.com

We have done two sequential studies seeking to determine on one hand the extent, if any, of contamination of inanimate surfaces in a standard infectious disease ward of a major referral hospital in northern Italy, and on the other hand whether the risk of contamination was higher in emergency rooms and sub-intensive care wards than on ordinary wards. Cleaning procedures were standard. A number of objects and surfaces were swabbed. Remarkably, only the continuous positive airway pressure helmet of one patient was positive for SARS-CoV-2 RNA. More importantly, attempts to culture the positive swabs on Vero E6 cells were unsuccessful, suggesting that patient fomites and surfaces are not contaminated with viable virus. Our findings suggest that environmental contamination leading to SARS-CoV-2 transmission is unlikely to occur in real-life conditions, provided that standard cleaning procedures and precautions are enforced. These data would support Goldman's point that the chance of transmission through inanimate surfaces is less frequent than hitherto recognised.

There are tons of others.

I could see there being a transmission via someone sneezing on a pizza and then someone else picking it up, but that involves two people in close contact with aerosol transmission.

And yes, it seems like some of the handwashing advice was pointless WRT covid. But I think it helped usher people - in the UK, anyway - towards wearing masks, though, and that does seem to help.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I wasn't aware that fomite transmission DIDN'T occur, because everything I have read in the news about washing your hands and sanitising between touching items in the supermarket indicates that it does.

Please provide a link that proves there is no fomite transmission, because that goes against everything I have heard so far.

I am really sorry if you misinterpreted or misunderstood my post, I do have significant communication issues and I am feeling really picked on right now.

In the early days, fomite transmission was considered likely to be a major factor, but as research into it has been carried out, there's been a shift in that thinking. Whilst fomite transmission hasn't been totally ruled out, any risk is considered very low in real life settings.

Exaggerated risk of transmission of COVID-19 by fomites - The Lancet

 

[LDC]

I wasn't aware that fomite transmission DIDN'T occur, because everything I have read in the news about washing your hands and sanitising between touching items in the supermarket indicates that it does.

Please provide a link that proves there is no fomite transmission, because that goes against everything I have heard so far.

I am really sorry if you misinterpreted or misunderstood my post, I do have significant communication issues and I am feeling really picked on right now.

You're explaining a mix of different things very badly, and some of what you're trying to explain is incorrect, some correct, and some just speculation, that's why some of us are struggling to make sense of it.

 

[Epona]

So basically news services have been giving incorrect advice pretty much all last year - it isn't my bloody fault that they have been doing that then, is it?

 

[Epona]

You're explaining a mix of different things very badly, and some of what you're trying to explain is incorrect, some correct, and some just speculation, that's why some of us are struggling to make sense of it.

I'm not explaining anything, I'm mostly just musing and thinking aloud like most of us here, and some of my info was based on stuff that has been in the news over the last year, perhaps every single one of us who doesn't have a pHD in a relevant subject should just back off this thread

 

[LDC]

So basically news services have been giving incorrect advice pretty much all last year - it isn't my bloody fault that they have been doing that then, is it?

No, most of the info pushed has been social distancing and mask wearing rather than hand washing. Formite transmission happens but it is very low compared to other routes. It's also irrelevant to the vaccine and how it works.

 

[Epona]

Also I made that post on 11th December and no-one noticed it until it was quoted earlier tonight - so it was deemed an OK or irrelevant post for nearly a month - THAT is why I am feeling picked on, because someone has dredged back through the thread and quoted something I said ages ago and kept banging on about it to make an argument.

 

[Epona]

I mean seriously - the post of mine that has seemingly caused this argument was an offhand comment I made nearly a month ago and several pages back, it isn't something I said today or yesterday, it has been dredged up from several pages back on this thread and there have been a whole load of other discussions going on, nearly a month's worth, since.

I shouldn't need to explain why that being dredged up and being pinioned for it by what is now several posters , weeks later and from several pages back in the thread (posted before we even had a vaccine), makes me feel singled out or picked on.

I mean seriously if anyone had an issue with it you should have picked me up on it at the time, not weeks later to create an argument about something I barely fucking remember posting - of course I feel fucking picked on and you can all go to hell.

 

[maomao]

Handwashing still has top billing in government advice - hands, face, space. It's not unreasonable that people worry about fomite transmission.

My poor wife, who has some level of ocd that she refuses to see a doctor about, has washed her hands till they're raw and bleeding several times this year.

 

[scifisam]

Also I made that post on 11th December and no-one noticed it until it was quoted earlier tonight - so it was deemed an OK or irrelevant post for nearly a month - THAT is why I am feeling picked on, because someone has dredged back through the thread and quoted something I said ages ago and kept banging on about it to make an argument.

That was me. I just clicked on the thread, read through it and didn't realise that your post was three weeks ago. I didn't dredge back through the thread.

But I wasn't an arsehole - I just asked for a link, in a polite but not too polite way. And I didn't keep banging on about it, either, I just responded to you.

The subject you brought up is important. Knowing that fomite transmission is negligible makes a difference, and it could change in the future.

 

[LDC]

Yeah, I didn't notice how long ago the post was made, just commented on what was current. Sorry you're feeling picked on though, although that does seem quite an extreme reaction to a few comments.

 

[Epona]

Of course I feel picked on when I made a post a while back that no-one noticed and then someone a while later quotes it and it becomes a hot topic that multiple posters (who didn't notice or care when I made the original post) weigh in on and everyone jumps on it and has a go at me weeks later. I am a human being and a fairly vulnerable one at that, and I think the fact this thread has suddenly turned its attention on an offhand comment I made weeks ago with people keep mentioning me (so it shows up in my notifications) and demanding that I provide this or that (when no-one gave a shit when I actually made the post) feels pretty horrible tbh.

It does feel fairly pack mentality - one person quoted it and criticised and then people started joining in - you all could have individually said something to disagree with my post when I made it weeks back.

 

[purenarcotic]

Step away ffs, nobody is picking on you.

 

[Epona]

Step away ffs, nobody is picking on you.

And another one joins the circling pack

 

[Supine]

In other news...

Marr just said the 'new one dose strategy'. The BBC really need to sort their journalism out. That is basic misinformation.

 

[purenarcotic]

And another one joins the circling pack

Not really, but you have a pattern of accusing people of picking on you when they aren’t and it really grates on me. I agree with you that washing hands regularly is still important, the evidence suggests it’s not quite as important as it was once thought to be. There is all sorts of half truths and misinformation going around, so of course people are going to robustly ask for evidence and challenge things they disagree with. That is not the same as a personal attack. Walk away, take a breath, give your gorgeous cats a cuddle. Nobody is attacking you.