Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls
- Thread starter LiamO
- Start date
She was telling you about the other people she'd slept with just after having sex with you?
I can see how that might not be very pleasant to listen to.
Let me clarify. Ours was a casual coupling. We just found ourselves together after a night's drinking after a long day of political activity. We were both a bit pissed/stoned and both horny. She was 19/20. I was 24/25. It was perfectly normal for two consenting young political activists to have a fuck if they both felt like one.
But what she described, the way that senior activists had basically passed her around amongst themselves, made my skin crawl. It would never have happened in Red Action. I'm not saying their wasn't loads of (politically incestuous) shagging going on but that kind of bolloxology would have been sussed and people left in no uncertainty about what was and wasn't acceptable.
Did she agree with you though? Or did you just tell her.
AFAIR she did in the end.
She was a convent-educated catholic girl from a small town in Essex (I think) who had never had a shag before she met them. She was quite open that she was looking for personal/sexual liberation so she was ceratinly a willing participant, but in hindsight she was deffo a bit iffy about much of went on. I suppose she was a bit torn. On one hand she was grateful that being around them had helped her cast off the inhibitions and guilt of her upbringing - but she was certainly questioning some of what had occurred by then. That's how the conversation started as I recall.
She was commenting on the fact that the girls in and around Red Action didn't get or take any shit.
e2a... I wasn't up on my moral high horse or denouncing them over it - I was mostly taking the piss out of the fact that they'd have no chance of getting into her knickers if they hadn't blinded her with Marxist theory beforehand. We were laughing about it - we were stoned afterall - then it all got a bit serious and sad.
bimble
floofy
Wow. She was 'passed around' ? Is that how she felt about it though? Real question, did she talk about it in those sort of terms?
If so that's awful. If not you may be totally projecting your stuff onto her. I haven't a clue either way obviously but she sounds like a young woman who actually liked having sex, and you just seem to be saying that you have a big problem with relationships where there's a big age difference. That's not something I agree with.
EDIT: ok i typed that before you posted the bit above
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
I think, LiamO, that you're making an unfair presumption that the only thing young women should be attracted to is youthful good looks. Actually, my own experience as a young woman, was (is? ) that charisma, intelligence, and a certain je ne sais quoi that people who are confident and active in left wing politics seem to have (twinkle in the eye, gift of the gab), are far more attractive than pretty young men. 'There's no accounting for taste' is a cliché for a reason. I really think there's a big gulf between what men think women find attractive and what women actually find attractive.
) that charisma, intelligence, and a certain je ne sais quoi that people who are confident and active in left wing politics seem to have (twinkle in the eye, gift of the gab), are far more attractive than pretty young men. 'There's no accounting for taste' is a cliché for a reason. I really think there's a big gulf between what men think women find attractive and what women actually find attractive.
bimble
floofy
I think, LiamO, that you're making an unfair presumption that the only thing young women should be attracted to is youthful good looks. Actually, my own experience as a young woman, was (is?
Definitely. At that age, what I wanted was men who were immensely wise and learned and spiritual and stuff.
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
Ok I missed your long post while I was making mine. I do also appreciate that sexual exploitation/abuse has and does happen in leftwing political organisations. I can see how. It doesn't change what i said about what young women may be attracted to - obviously the shame there is all on the men taking advantage.
Eta: I'm not going to post any more because I'm rotten drunk and I really respect this thread
Eta: I'm not going to post any more because I'm rotten drunk and I really respect this thread
You give good questions Bimble.
I think 'passed on' would be a fairer description.
No. I don't have any problem with big age differences. at all. They were very common on the left and I know some great couples where one was considerably older than the other - and both ways. Two of the best activists and most decent people I ever met were a WP couple in their mid 30's. As is my wont I blurted out my feelings about this to them over a pint and we had a full and frank discussion about it. They too were a bit conflicted about it (her rights as a young woman to shag whoever she wanted Vs they both felt it was a bit seedy.
I'm sure there was a fair bit of 'up yours mummy/daddy/ the catholic church' in her actions too. In some ways she was 'using' them too.
I think it's more a question of relative power relations too. And I noted it was always the intellectual glitterati, rather than the foot soldiers, who got the top totty (The RCP were desperate for this as I recall).
Ok I missed your long post while I was making mine. I do also appreciate that sexual exploitation/abuse has and does happen in leftwing political organisations. I can see how. It doesn't change what i said about what young women may be attracted to - obviously the shame there is all on the men taking advantage.
Eta: I'm not going to post any more because I'm rotten drunk and I really respect this thread
Enjoy your drink and come back tomorrow then. I'll look forward to your contributions
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Especially if she was giving marks out of 10.She was telling you about the other people she'd slept with just after having sex with you?
I can see how that might not be very pleasant to listen to.
bimble
floofy
Yep, I think that's an important part of this .. it's not just any old geezer is it, it's the really sparkly ones. Also with pop stars and writers and so on. Don't think it's unique to 'the left' , maybe more obvious there because more sexually free.
My views are probably a bit rosy because the (much) older men I got together with back when I was very young are both still good friends, so maybe I chose well or something.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I think the problem with the left is that 'casting of the shackles of bourgeois morality' or whatever is perfectly fine, but it can used as a cover for explorative behavior. And it can be hard to tell the difference. Hell it's not going to be easy to agree where the boundary is. The individuals involved certainty won't see themselves as exploiting anyone. Mind you does anyone ever see themselves like that? I also think the left can attract some slightly odd people who can end up in what can look to others like odd relationships.
Rebelda
Nearly as bad as Badgers
Ok I know I said I wasn't going to post
I nearly said something similar about my own past yesterday, but then I thought that implies that someone who ended up in an abusive relationship chose badly. I think we have to accept that we were lucky and that anyone abused/assaulted was unlucky.
'casting of the shackles of bourgeois morality'... yep that's the phrase I was struggling for.
I take it 'exploitive' was the one you meant?
Yeah. This mob probably carried a well-thumbed copy of 'The Love of Worker Bees' in their arse pocket... right beside the condoms!
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
I could swear I corrected that before posting !
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
You may not have thought you were in a position of power, but it's relative. Being someone a bit older and more experienced and apparently knowledgeable and respected and/or liked within an organisation/political circle who is doing Important Things to Change the World can seem like power to someone younger and less experienced and more peripheral, regardless of 'official' status. None of which is to have a go at you at all - I don't know what your situation was or how you acted; it needn't have been abusively.
I think this is an interesting article: David Bowie, rock star groupies and the sexually adventurous ’70s: “Labeling us as victims in retrospect is not a very conscious thing to do”
(Not just in defense of Bowie, honest!) It sort of says that they were different times, but not in a way that says people thought differently about abusive situations then, but more that there was a then still recent emphasis on women (and young women) being able to go out and get the sex they wanted. No doubt some of this was encouraged by lecherous old t/codgers as expedient, but it will have made some young women feel, then and later, that they were active and enthusiastic participants. And in case it's not clear, none of that excuses taking advantage of young people caught up in the scene who didn't feel that way - it should never be expected that they should.
Does that make any sense?!
I've thought hard and that story rings no bells. I doubt I am yet too senile to remember.
Yes, it makes sense.
I wasn't old. I wasn't in any position of power.
Having said that I was not averse to shagging any middle-class female activist who basically targeted me cos they caught the whiff of (metaphorical) cordite when around Red Action. There were not that many fellas around who were not either in steady relationships or indeed could be arsed chasing casual sex. It was 'dangerous' for them but very safe. A bit of genuine rough but with added politics that made it a much 'safer' dalliance. IYKWIM. Plus I suppose I was often assigned 'liaison/public relations duty' with other left groups (lots of RA/AFA people had a mutual mistrust thing going on with the orthodox left) so I did know and speak to lots of political activists.
Same as a black mate of mine, Pete, who basically shagged his was through both Hackney branches of the SWP. He got to shag 'posh birds' ("It's like a Xmas party evry night geez") and they got to shag a hunky, young, black, Cockney geezer/wide-boy (kind of like shagging me, only with added black... and East-end boy... so many boxes ticked in one shag), so it cut both ways.
Not that I was by any stretch a great shag in my youth. I recall one older activist's report back to her mes after our brief dalliance... "Well, I can certainly say he was very... erm... energetic" was her considered opinion.
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Looby
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I feel the same. Despite being young and quite messed up I don't necessarily think I was in an abusive situation. The guy I was with was genuinely lovely to me and actually helped me through a lot of this shit I was going through. I can't imagine someone of my own age being able to support me in the same way. I was lucky really, many of my later boyfriends were fucking rotters!Ok I know I said I wasn't going to post
I nearly said something similar about my own past yesterday, but then I thought that implies that someone who ended up in an abusive relationship chose badly. I think we have to accept that we were lucky and that anyone abused/assaulted was unlucky.
Saying all that, I know what I got from the relationship but I do now wonder what his motivations were. That does make me feel a bit weird and conflicted now. Does that make sense?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's another good perspective, I think. Clearly I don't know your circumstances, but you said that he was lovely to you. Maybe his motivations were no more complicated than that you were lovely to him? I think sometimes we overthink the idea of motivation in relationships - surely the motivation is most often simply that you're going with what is in front of you?
Maybe he just felt lucky to be with a young woman who could see past age/looks and was happy she had chosen him to guide her through life's choppy waters rather than some belligerent oaf her own age? (Like me
)Maybe it's not so helpful to be projecting today's mores back on those days ... which is kind of where this thread started really.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Like I said, I wasn't suggesting my comments necessarily applied to you, or that you have anything to defend.
Just that feeling powerful and being perceived as such don't necessarily match up.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Perfect sense. It's the same for me.
I am not inclined to search for excuses for my motivations but I would say my miserable sexual experiences were such a dead loss that I fell into a much darker druggy culture with a fervent belief that getting wasted was a far more fulfilling and reliable emotional exploration than drunken sex with older men who, far from providing the security I craved, offered nothing. And apparently wanted nothing from me except my compliant young flesh. Even now, at 60, physical intimacy is a difficult and fraught mode of expression for me...and has been my whole life.
tendril
Coming up blastin' like Yosemite Sam
I haven't read this thread for a few pages, and I know we aren't discussing marriage but I have just discovered that the legal minimum age for marriage in Massachusetts (with parental consent) for girls is 13. And California has no minimum age (with parental or judicial consent). I kid you not:
Age of marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Age of marriage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So it's ok to take advantage of impressionable women as long as they're middle class then liam?
just as well I never said that then, eh?
By the way, you should watch your back. I see the little rat who skulked off earlier, after stinking up the place and making repeated attempts to rustle up a posse has just liked your post. He will want you in his gang now. Once you are in, there's no way out...
That's grim.
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