Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[frogwoman]

I agree that the porn industry is appalling and really exploitative but surely wanting women never to be seen or express their sexuality is just as bad, if not worse? Try watching porn in raqqa for example? I don't know. My objection to porn is mostly based on the conditions suffered by workers and to a lesser extent the fact it can create unrealistic expectations of sex (but then so can the entire film industry)

There's a couple of women here who do what can be described as adult performances on here and their work and openness about their sexuality etc has actually made me a lot more comfortable and less ashamed of my body etc.

Like i don't know. The commercial sex industry is fucking appalling but to say every depiction of porn is misogynistic by definition is something i can't really go along with as the definition of porn could be so easily extended into other things, like pictures or depictions of women in general.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I think the problem with the left is that 'casting of the shackles of bourgeois morality' or whatever is perfectly fine, but it can used as a cover for explorative behavior. And it can be hard to tell the difference. Hell it's not going to be easy to agree where the boundary is. The individuals involved certainty won't see themselves as exploiting anyone. Mind you does anyone ever see themselves like that? I also think the left can attract some slightly odd people who can end up in what can look to others like odd relationships.

Problem is that there isn't one bourgeois morality these days. Sexual liberation and drug taking is just as much a part of bourgeois morality as anything else, as it's been so tightly integrated. And this is coming from someone who enjoys 2 or 10 spliffs!

Actually, I'm going to disagree with the poster above who claimed that the 60s and 70s counter culture was revolutionary. If anything patriarchy has become more diffuse, less regimented, more improvisatory.

 

[planetgeli]

How about we just remove the word "all"?

The vast majority of porn is misogynistic. IME women tend not to require the objectification of men in the same way men seem to think they have an inalienable right to do to women.

 

[existentialist]

Is your own home made porn with the wife misogynistick?

This has morphed into another interesting and useful discussion...

 

[frogwoman]

How about we just remove the word "all"?

The vast majority of porn is misogynistic. IME women tend not to require the objectification of men in the same way men seem to think they have an inalienable right to do to women.

They tend to but i think to some extent that has changed if the cafe that i was in on the way to Leeds was anything to go by. I walked in and was shocked to see several photos of fully nude blokes on the wall behind the serving counter, 70s pin up style. . The people working there were all women in their 20s and 30s.

 

[bimble]

Had me thinking "is gay male porn misogynistic"? To some extent possibly but all?

Did You Know that gay male porn is one of the most popular genres amongst women who watch porn?

And what about things like this? (Khajurahu aprox 100 AD)

 

[Pickman's model]

How about we just remove the word "all"?

The vast majority of porn is misogynistic. IME women tend not to require the objectification of men in the same way men seem to think they have an inalienable right to do to women.

tbh that does not seem like an advance on previous discussion.

 

[existentialist]

I agree that the porn industry is appalling and really exploitative but surely wanting women never to be seen or express their sexuality is just as bad, if not worse? Try watching porn in raqqa for example? I don't know. My objection to porn is mostly based on the conditions suffered by workers and to a lesser extent the fact it can create unrealistic expectations of sex (but then so can the entire film industry)

Haha, I just had a similar discussion with Mrs E. She likes romantic comedy films; I don't - I loathe them with a deep and burning passions, all the more for watching Mrs E getting a sniffle, or going "Awww" at a particularly syrupy moment.

And I've given some thought as to why I loathe them - it's because they sell us a bill of goods. They create an expectation around romance and LURVE that is utterly unrealistic, and a parody of the real thing. Sound familiar yet?

Because I think that's exactly the same problem porn demonstrates: it reduces the act of sex to a woman-objectifying, mechanistic formula without light or shade, in exactly the same way that romantic comedies reduce the whole emotional relationship thing to a mechanistic formula that doesn't quite so overtly objectify women, but lays the groundwork nicely, and both create an impression that artificialiality and superficiality are valuable parts of both process.

Obviously, the consequences of someone believing that life is like romantic comedies are slightly less (though only slightly, trust me on this) disturbing than those of people believing that sex is (or should be) just like porn, but I still think that both are unhelpful corruptions of reality.

 

[frogwoman]

Tbh i think romantic comedies and fifty shades of grey etc can be WORSE than porn in the attitudes they promote.

 

[purenarcotic]

There is a big issue around us not providing proper education on porn / sex etc. A lot of very young children are watching porn and not having the space to discuss what they are seeing. It is quite normal for teenage boys to pressure their girlfriends into sending them nude images and then sharing them with the school when she does something he doesn't like, childline have seen a 132% increase in the number of children calling to talk about sexual images they have seen which has upset them. We can't keep expecting kids to be exposed to this stuff and not talk to them properly about it, they need the space and adult guidance to help them work through. We need to be a lot more confident to talk about sex and relationships with young people.

 

[planetgeli]

tbh that does not seem like an advance on previous discussion.

Why not? Are you saying there is no gender imbalance in sex? Are you one of these people who think sex work is empowering for women? Not trying to put words in your mouth, genuinely trying to work out why you think my statement is no advance on previous discussion.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why not? Are you saying there is no gender imbalance in sex? Are you one of these people who think sex work is empowering for women? Not trying to put words in your mouth, genuinely trying to work out why you think my statement is no advance on previous discussion.

removing word 'all' from 'all porn is misogynistic' doesn't much move things forward. nor does an equation of sex work, usually used as a synonym for prostitution, with porn. i am not myself interested in the quantity of porn which is or is not misogynistick: that's a navel-gazing exercise. i think your assertion the vast majority of porn misogynistick ignores other women's arguments in favour of porn and

 

[Pickman's model]

imo substitutes your individual view of porn for other views which may welcome some forms of porn while abhorring others. there appears little nuance in your view nor any means by which one may sort the misogynistick from the rest.

 

[bimble]

there appears little nuance in your view nor any means by which one may sort the misogynistick from the rest.

People have been looking into this for a while, and have made an effort to get beyond removing the word "all"..
There have been 10 years for instance of the Annual Feminist Porn Awards, in Canada. The criteria for nominees there are as follows

1. Women and/or traditionally marginalized people were involved in the direction, production and/or conception of the work.
2. The work depicts genuine pleasure, agency and desire for all performers, especially women and traditionally marginalized people.
3. The work expands the boundaries of sexual representation on film, challenges stereotypes and presents a vision that sets the content apart from most mainstream pornography.

Feminist pornography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bimble]

We can't keep expecting kids to be exposed to this stuff and not talk to them properly about it, they need the space and adult guidance to help them work through. We need to be a lot more confident to talk about sex and relationships with young people.

Absolutely.
Can I just put this here ? I think it's brilliant. It's a 5 minute animated film based on Toward A Performance Model Of Sex, a superb essay on the problem with commodifying the whole subject. The woman who made this film it is an internet friend of mine and a sex educator working in schools to help with just what you're talking about.

 

[Pickman's model]

People have been looking into this for a while, and have made an effort to get beyond removing the word "all"..
There have been 10 years for instance of the Annual Feminist Porn Awards, in Canada. The criteria for nominees there are as follows

1. Women and/or traditionally marginalized people were involved in the direction, production and/or conception of the work.
2. The work depicts genuine pleasure, agency and desire for all performers, especially women and traditionally marginalized people.
3. The work expands the boundaries of sexual representation on film, challenges stereotypes and presents a vision that sets the content apart from most mainstream pornography.

Feminist pornography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

thank you for moving things on to quality from quantity

 

[Chris Dove]

View attachment 81920

'Blackstar'Bowie bows out
Hats off to the Brixton boy extraordinaire who left this mortal coil 3 days after reaching a remarkable milestone. With the release of his 25th studio album 'Blackstar', Bowie bows out in cool, classic style.
During the months I was Brixton Town Centre Manager, you could see equally dapper/deranged dudes and dames strutting their stuff up, down and every which way around Electric Avenue.
RIP David Bowie – you lit a spark in most of us.

 

[planetgeli]

removing word 'all' from 'all porn is misogynistic' doesn't much move things forward. nor does an equation of sex work, usually used as a synonym for prostitution, with porn. i am not myself interested in the quantity of porn which is or is not misogynistick: that's a navel-gazing exercise. i think your assertion the vast majority of porn misogynistick ignores other women's arguments in favour of porn and

Well for starters I didn't simply remove the word 'all' did I? I replaced it with 'the vast majority'. But, fair enough, you say that to you this is a navel gazing exercise. Personally I see it as an evidence-based proof of the imbalance of power. I don't see an awful lot of room for 'nuance' when the vast majority of search terms for porn on the Internet rely on straightforward misogyny or a preference for teenagers (and the obvious sexism that implies). And somebody who works in porn is still a sex worker.

You quote 'other women's arguments in favour of porn' as if it's some sort of balanced world and patriarchy and misogyny don't exist. This is, to me, pure bollocks and smacks of someone usually trying to justify their own actions in watching porn. "Oh, it's ok, some woman I know said so". Yeah. Not trying to spoil your wank or anything but personally I'd argue that for every woman who thinks its ok, I'll find you several hundred who are uncomfortable with it. Oh, but that's me and my navel gazing quantity argument again isn't it? I'm not for the 'empowering' argument. I could be a stockbroker. It doesn't empower me against the iniquitous capitalist system. It just means I'm joining in and enjoying the spoils.

If there are women making porn genuinely depicting pleasure, all power to them. Id say they are a tiny minority. And to quote that in a debate about pornography in a thread nominally about pop stars and groupies is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well for starters I didn't simply remove the word 'all' did I? I replaced it with 'the vast majority'. But, fair enough, you say that to you this is a navel gazing exercise. Personally I see it as an evidence-based proof of the imbalance of power. I don't see an awful lot of room for 'nuance' when the vast majority of search terms for porn on the Internet rely on straightforward misogyny or a preference for teenagers (and the obvious sexism that implies). And somebody who works in porn is still a sex worker.

You quote 'other women's arguments in favour of porn' as if it's some sort of balanced world and patriarchy and misogyny don't exist. This is, to me, pure bollocks and smacks of someone usually trying to justify their own actions in watching porn. "Oh, it's ok, some woman I know said so". Yeah. Not trying to spoil your wank or anything but personally I'd argue that for every woman who thinks its ok, I'll find you several hundred who are uncomfortable with it. Oh, but that's me and my navel gazing quantity argument again isn't it? I'm not for the 'empowering' argument. I could be a stockbroker. It doesn't empower me against the iniquitous capitalist system. It just means I'm joining in and enjoying the spoils.

If there are women making porn genuinely depicting pleasure, all power to them. Id say they are a tiny minority. And to quote that in a debate about pornography in a thread nominally about pop stars and groupies is disingenuous to say the least.

i would appreciate it if you read my posts on the subject.

 

[bimble]

If there are women making porn genuinely depicting pleasure, all power to them. Id say they are a tiny minority. And to quote that in a debate about pornography in a thread nominally about pop stars and groupies is disingenuous to say the least.

They surely are, a tiny minority. And you're right we've strayed a long way from Bowie. Interesting subject though and relevant because of whether or not women involved (in porn , in shagging rock stars) can be said to have agency and enjoy what they are doing or are just being exploited because of the power imbalances that we all live in etc

 

[Pickman's model]

Well for starters I didn't simply remove the word 'all' did I? I replaced it with 'the vast majority'. But, fair enough, you say that to you this is a navel gazing exercise. Personally I see it as an evidence-based proof of the imbalance of power. I don't see an awful lot of room for 'nuance' when the vast majority of search terms for porn on the Internet rely on straightforward misogyny or a preference for teenagers (and the obvious sexism that implies). And somebody who works in porn is still a sex worker.

You quote 'other women's arguments in favour of porn' as if it's some sort of balanced world and patriarchy and misogyny don't exist. This is, to me, pure bollocks and smacks of someone usually trying to justify their own actions in watching porn. "Oh, it's ok, some woman I know said so". Yeah. Not trying to spoil your wank or anything but personally I'd argue that for every woman who thinks its ok, I'll find you several hundred who are uncomfortable with it. Oh, but that's me and my navel gazing quantity argument again isn't it? I'm not for the 'empowering' argument. I could be a stockbroker. It doesn't empower me against the iniquitous capitalist system. It just means I'm joining in and enjoying the spoils.

If there are women making porn genuinely depicting pleasure, all power to them. Id say they are a tiny minority. And to quote that in a debate about pornography in a thread nominally about pop stars and groupies is disingenuous to say the least.

so it seems fpr you porn is intdrnet-based video. i have cast it rather wider. you say i sound like i'm trying to justify my watching porn. isay you sound like someone desperate for anargument but not finding one. i also say you've shown yourself less than honest on this thread and tbe post here quoted no exception.

 

[ska invita]

Eek a Mouse and his love for his Virgin Girl....

We tek a walk for a Kingston mall,
Whole heap a people jus' a start to laugh,
Because a she too short an' a me too tall,
She too short an' a me too tall, ey.

Avoids mentioning her age though....

 

[Pickman's model]

Well for starters I didn't simply remove the word 'all' did I? I replaced it with 'the vast majority'. But, fair enough, you say that to you this is a navel gazing exercise. Personally I see it as an evidence-based proof of the imbalance of power. I don't see an awful lot of room for 'nuance' when the vast majority of search terms for porn on the Internet rely on straightforward misogyny or a preference for teenagers (and the obvious sexism that implies). And somebody who works in porn is still a sex worker.

You quote 'other women's arguments in favour of porn' as if it's some sort of balanced world and patriarchy and misogyny don't exist. This is, to me, pure bollocks and smacks of someone usually trying to justify their own actions in watching porn. "Oh, it's ok, some woman I know said so". Yeah. Not trying to spoil your wank or anything but personally I'd argue that for every woman who thinks its ok, I'll find you several hundred who are uncomfortable with it. Oh, but that's me and my navel gazing quantity argument again isn't it? I'm not for the 'empowering' argument. I could be a stockbroker. It doesn't empower me against the iniquitous capitalist system. It just means I'm joining in and enjoying the spoils.

If there are women making porn genuinely depicting pleasure, all power to them. Id say they are a tiny minority. And to quote that in a debate about pornography in a thread nominally about pop stars and groupies is disingenuous to say the least.

oh: and millions of pms of support or a varistion thereof doesn't constitute an argument.

 

[planetgeli]

so it seems fpr you porn is intdrnet-based video. i have cast it rather wider. you say i sound like i'm trying to justify my watching porn. isay you sound like someone desperate for anargument but not finding one. i also say you've shown yourself less than honest on this thread and tbe post here quoted no exception.

I'd say you've spent the weekend spunking over your keyboard while looking up my old posts. I've had a weekend of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll.

You sad, sad, little man. Get some friends.

 

[Favelado]

Nobody stop this argument. Looks like it could get quite good.

 

[Favelado]

And by good I mean nasty.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd say you've spent the weekend spunking over your keyboard while looking up my old posts. I've had a weekend of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll.

You sad, sad, little man. Get some friends.

you've some front suggesting your posts are pornographic. i expect the only sex you've had's with your vacuum cleaner, the drugs some paracetamol to cope with a slight headache, and the rock 'n roll a straight-up lie.

i would like to see you deal with the argument rather than your inaccurate beliefs of my love life but the way you've quoted a post from two weeks ago as tho it were posted yesterday doesn't fill me with confidence you have the wherewithal.

 

[Pickman's model]

And by good I mean nasty.

it won't get nasty enough for you because planetgeli's a one trick pony.

 

[bimble]

Eek a Mouse and his love for his Virgin Girl....

We tek a walk for a Kingston mall,
Whole heap a people jus' a start to laugh,
Because a she too short an' a me too tall,
She too short an' a me too tall, ey.

Avoids mentioning her age though....

This one's more specific, and pragmatic.

'woman you're pretty but you'll get no response; what you're looking at is a life sentence ..
go home to your mama & check me 2 years later' etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

Favelado planetgeli's like phildwyer only without the intellect, charm and bonhomie. and where dwyer will ruthlessly pursue an argument, where even diamond will pursue an argument, planetgeli doesn't. doesn't have the stamina and all they ever do is some shit ad hominems which would have shamed ernestolynch.