Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls

[killer b]

By the way, you should watch your back. I see the little rat who skulked off earlier, after stinking up the place and making repeated attempts to rustle up a posse has just liked your post. He will want you in his gang now. Once you are in, there's no way out...

I'm not much into gangs tbh.

 

[LiamO]

I am not inclined to search for excuses for my motivations but I would say my miserable sexual experiences were such a dead loss that I fell into a much darker druggy culture with a fervent belief that getting wasted was a far more fulfilling and reliable emotional exploration than drunken sex with older men who, far from providing the security I craved, offered nothing. And apparently wanted nothing from me except my compliant young flesh. Even now, at 60, physical intimacy is a difficult and fraught mode of expression for me...and has been my whole life.

Looking back I have come to the conclusion that casual, drink or drug-feulled sex is basically a glorified wank. Just enough to take the edge off (and I and many around me certainly had lots of edges) but never truly fulfilling. Basically I would have shied away from any real amotional attachment in those days. In any case it was kind of frowned upon as somehow 'bourgeois'.

I havent had sex with anyone but my wife for 20 years and, much to my amazement, I've never had better sex. Maybe we should move this whole conversation to 'nobbing and sobbing'. It's a really worthwhile conversation and it may prove useful to both those particpating and those currently lurking, but it could all blow up nasty on here at any stage. Obviously that attack would be on me rather than you, bimble, looby, mation, rebelda, lbj etc.

Ironically enough N&S would supply a 'safer place' for an invective-free conversation where everyone could feel free to conribute freely.

 

[LiamO]

I'm not much into gangs tbh.

Have another read of what I wrote. I'll be happy to clarify anything you genuinely find offensive tomorrow. But only if you are really interested in that clarification. If you are looking for a row, you can kiss the Castlebar side of my hairy hole.

 

[bimble]

I think this is an interesting article: David Bowie, rock star groupies and the sexually adventurous ’70s: “Labeling us as victims in retrospect is not a very conscious thing to do”

Really good article that I think. Puts the 70s into a different context - it wasn't just the bad old time of the Carry on films & Saville, was also a really important moment for the "sex positive' bit of feminism. Reminds me that this was a generation of young women whose parents were from the 50's: The whole idea of women actually wanting to have sex (being active agents in the whole thing not passive objects of men's advances) was kind of revolutionary. I do wonder sometimes how much progress has really been made since then.
This is not to excuse anyone taking advantage of anyone else/ coercing them ever etc etc.

 

[smokedout]

Really good article that I think. Puts the 70s into a different context - it wasn't just the bad old time of the Carry on films & Saville, was also a really important moment for the "sex positive' bit of feminism. Reminds me that this was a generation of young women whose parents were from the 50's: The whole idea of women actually wanting to have sex (being active agents in the whole thing not passive objects of men's advances) was kind of revolutionary. I do wonder sometimes how much progress has really been made since then.
This is not to excuse anyone taking advantage of anyone else/ coercing them ever etc etc.

I don't think a lot of young people realise just how repressive society was when it came to sexuality. Even when I was growing up in the 80s, and from a male perspective, sex outside of marriage or cohabitation was still frowned on by many, gender and sexuality was ruthlessly policed - the worst thing you could be at my school if you were a boy was 'a poof', even long hair was a big deal, porn barely existed until videos came along and a flash of female nudity in a Hollywood movie was enough to sell a film - most of me and my friends saw our first female nipple in films like Trading Places, or in a manky old copy of Razzle we found in a bush. In this context sex was a way to rebel, and losing your virginity as young as possible was a way to gain social standing. Whilst I can't speak for women, certainly a female friend of mine who shagged people in bands a lot older than her appeared to be doing this both as a form of rebellion, and enjoyment, even if like many other vices, it could be a bit hollow and sordid.

Of course one of the upshots of sexual repression and resistance to it was that this often manifested in ways that seems very unpleasant by contemporary standards, the aforementioned Trading Places is horrifyingly misogynist, the kind of porn that got passed around after the advent of video - pretty much every boy in my school probably watched some of Animal Farm (don't google it you guessed right) - was worse than much of the readily available porn teenage boys watch now, and a lot of the music, both mainstream and alternative, was sexist crap. I guess this is what happens when a sexual revolution happens within patriarchy, the gains made in the 60s, 70s and 80s did not overthrow male dominance, what we were actually seeing was a shift in patriarchy from the denial of female sexuality to the exploitation and commodification of female sexuality. Within the space opened up by that change empowerment could be found, but it also masked a fuck of a lot of abuse.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Jeffries asks 'At what point do we as a society go 'But they were good'... but like... what I'm trying to say is... "just how talented do you have to be to fuck a kid"?'


I posted the clip above on the David Bowie RIP thread. Unsurprisingly it got an instant reaction from those who worship Bowie's undoubted musical talent, ability, legacy or indeed genius.

I'm not gonna stink up the RIP thread with a bunfight about Bowie's sexual history and the wider question of pop/rock stars and underage girls - but the dicussion needs to be had.

It is common knowledge that David Bowie - just like Iggy Pop, Jimmy Page and many more contemporaries... and like Elvis, Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis et al before them... had sex with lots of underage girls back in his 70's heyday. Bill Wyman was still at it with 13 year-olds at the age of 50 FFS. It was very common back then. Came with the territory so to speak,

What was commonplace (and generally sniggered at) back then would nowadays get you the jail straight away, but only after you had been suitably, publicly, scorned.

Some celebs - because we love them for their artistic genius - get a bye-ball. Others, such as celebrity DJs and TV presenters, don't. Whether aa Artiste is perceived as a bit of a drug-feuled hornball or a 'dirty fuckin nonce' seems to be dependent on how cool or how influential you are

1. Some will people will argue that this is 'too soon' after his passing to be discussed. I would argue that the same courtesy would not be extended to others - such DJs and other, less artistically accomplished, celebs or indeed people who it is coll to not like.

2. Some people will cry 'where's your proof'? whilst ignoring the widely available anecdotal evidence from contemporaries. Many of these same people require no such level of proof to wade in and pontificate about those they don't like (Cliff anybody? Jim Davidson?)

3. Posters who ventured that 'things were different back then' have basically been called apologists for noncery on here. I wonder would any of those who wailed the loudest turn up on either of the Bowie RIP threads with a somewhat more nuanced view?

Anecdotal evidence is not countenanced in a court of law, I wonder why that is?

 

[killer b]

Its like 40 pages of discussion hasn't just happened.

 

[bimble]

Sasaferrato is always anachronistic to the point of irrelevance.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Its like 40 pages of discussion hasn't just happened.

Sorry, but life is too short to plough through forty pages. I responded to one post, a post which stated the the 'evidence' was anecdotal. I do find it curious though, given the rising tendency for litigation, that those girls supposedly raped by Jimmy Page et al, have a. not made a complaint to the police, and b. no civil litigation has been launched.

I am not saying that under-age sex didn't take place, what I am saying is that there has been a stunning lack of allegations from the victims.

 

[killer b]

apart from all those interviews they've given, which have been backed up by contemporaries time and time again.

 

[bimble]

a manky old copy of Razzle we found in a bush.

I think we must have gone to the same school.

Really good post, acknowledging how people's motivations on both sides of any gender / age divide are very rarely simple to define and lock down into a choice of good / bad when you're talking about consensual sex.

Whilst I can't speak for women, certainly a female friend of mine who shagged people in bands a lot older than her appeared to be doing this both as a form of rebellion, and enjoyment, even if like many other vices, it could be a bit hollow and sordid.

I can't speak for 'women' either but yes.

 

[smokedout]

I think we must have gone to the same school.

Really good post, acknowledging how people's motivations on both sides of any gender / age divide are very rarely simple to define and lock down into a choice of good / bad when you're talking about consensual sex.

thanks. perhaps another dynamic worth mentioning, because it applies to Bowie, is that whilst sleeping around was transgressive, it was also a way of adhering to traditional masculinity - ie not being 'a puff'. Bowie, Bolan and some of their male fans may have been 'gender warriors', but they were also showing, with a nod and a wink, that really they were just good blokes in it for a shag. I relate to that, I (cringes) was into glam rock in the 80s, I liked androgyny, but that was dangerous, and sleeping around (or trying to sleep around) was a way of off-setting that. I don't think its any surpirse that some of the worst attitudes were displayed first in 70s glam rock, and later in bands like Motley Crue, who looked like girls, but behaved lke male arseholes.

Should add I never did anything non-consensual, or slept with anyone under-age, although my attitude towards women wasn't great at that age. I was under-age, and had a lot of sexual experiences with adults throughout the age of 14-18, mostly women, but clandestly a couple of men. I lied about my age, I looked older than I was, and even had a couple of entire relationships where throughout my partner thought I was 4/5 years older than I actually was. I don't think this was very cool behaviour, and it seems quite bizarre to me intuitively that they would potentially be seen as the abusers nowadays. That is not in anyway a defence of people sleeping with those much younger than them, but I didn't feel like a child, I wanted to be an adult and felt like one, I lived on my own from age 16, and do not think I was damaged by those experiences. I think if anything this possibly highlights the differential power relations between genders, but also that there was very much a yearning to be grown up when I was a teen, its why we all started smoking fags. I don't know if that is as strong today although I suspect it might be and it would be interesting to hear the views of that age group in relation to this subject..

 

[existentialist]

Sorry, but life is too short to plough through forty pages. I responded to one post, a post which stated the the 'evidence' was anecdotal. I do find it curious though, given the rising tendency for litigation, that those girls supposedly raped by Jimmy Page et al, have a. not made a complaint to the police, and b. no civil litigation has been launched.

I am not saying that under-age sex didn't take place, what I am saying is that there has been a stunning lack of allegations from the victims.

I appreciate that 40 pages is a lot to read, but in those pages were some interesting ideas about why that might be.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I don't think a lot of young people realise just how repressive society was when it came to sexuality. Even when I was growing up in the 80s, and from a male perspective, sex outside of marriage or cohabitation was still frowned on by many, gender and sexuality was ruthlessly policed - the worst thing you could be at my school if you were a boy was 'a poof', even long hair was a big deal, porn barely existed until videos came along and a flash of female nudity in a Hollywood movie was enough to sell a film - most of me and my friends saw our first female nipple in films like Trading Places, or in a manky old copy of Razzle we found in a bush. In this context sex was a way to rebel, and losing your virginity as young as possible was a way to gain social standing. Whilst I can't speak for women, certainly a female friend of mine who shagged people in bands a lot older than her appeared to be doing this both as a form of rebellion, and enjoyment, even if like many other vices, it could be a bit hollow and sordid.

Of course one of the upshots of sexual repression and resistance to it was that this often manifested in ways that seems very unpleasant by contemporary standards, the aforementioned Trading Places is horrifyingly misogynist, the kind of porn that got passed around after the advent of video - pretty much every boy in my school probably watched some of Animal Farm (don't google it you guessed right) - was worse than much of the readily available porn teenage boys watch now, and a lot of the music, both mainstream and alternative, was sexist crap. I guess this is what happens when a sexual revolution happens within patriarchy, the gains made in the 60s, 70s and 80s did not overthrow male dominance, what we were actually seeing was a shift in patriarchy from the denial of female sexuality to the exploitation and commodification of female sexuality. Within the space opened up by that change empowerment could be found, but it also masked a fuck of a lot of abuse.

Having given the matter a great deal of thought, all porn is essentially misogynistic. It also bears no no semblance whatsoever to a genuine male/female relationship, and distorts young boys view of what a relationship should be.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I appreciate that 40 pages is a lot to read, but in those pages were some interesting ideas about why that might be.

I'm sure there are, but that is what they are, ideas, aka speculation.

 

[existentialist]

I'm sure there are, but that is what they are, ideas, aka speculation.

You've read them, then?

 

[bluescreen]

Sasaferrato I may not have participated much in this discussion but have read every page and they are worth your time. There are some generously frank testimonies and thoughtful contributions, for which I am grateful.

 

[Pickman's model]

Having given the matter a great deal of thought, all porn is essentially misogynistic. It also bears no no semblance whatsoever to a genuine male/female relationship, and distorts young boys view of what a relationship should be.

what, even porn written by women for women?

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry, but life is too short to plough through forty pages. I responded to one post, a post which stated the the 'evidence' was anecdotal. I do find it curious though, given the rising tendency for litigation, that those girls supposedly raped by Jimmy Page et al, have a. not made a complaint to the police, and b. no civil litigation has been launched.

I am not saying that under-age sex didn't take place, what I am saying is that there has been a stunning lack of allegations from the victims.

have you ever read a book longer than 40 pages?

 

[Pickman's model]

Anecdotal evidence is not countenanced in a court of law, I wonder why that is?

yes it is.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Some women have mentioned that they have had or would have had sex with older men when they were underage girls, especially with pop stars. From what I observed as a child, this was fairly normal behaviour for young girls. What isn't normal, or acceptable, is a grown man, a 'pop star' abusing his position of power and fucking an obviously under age girl. She was a schoolgirl, almost half his age, and regardless of whether or not she threw herself at him, it was his responsibility to say no, but he didn't say no, he plied her with drugs and fucked her, which, in any right-minded person's head, makes him a nonce, and his obvious position of power makes it even worse, IMO.

 

[bluescreen]

what, even porn written by women for women?

Erm, even women can be misogynistic. They can be the worst. It's the grannies, not the dads, who preside over fgm ceremonies. People buy into the culture. Everyone does: they want to fit in, be accepted, gain authority. This is one of the reasons that railing against the patriarchy is pissing in the wind.

 

[smokedout]

yes it is.

I think he meant hearsay evidence, not the sharpest tool in the box old Sass, gotta make allowances

 

[Casually Red]

Having given the matter a great deal of thought, all porn is essentially misogynistic. It also bears no no semblance whatsoever to a genuine male/female relationship, and distorts young boys view of what a relationship should be.

You've watched it all ?

For research purposes presumably ?

Fair play to you .

 

[Pickman's model]

Erm, even women can be misogynistic. They can be the worst. It's the grannies, not the dads, who preside over fgm ceremonies. People buy into the culture. Everyone does: they want to fit in, be accepted, gain authority. This is one of the reasons that railing against the patriarchy is pissing in the wind.

yeh. but that's coming from the starting point that all porn is misogynistick which i am not sure is either true or universally declared.

 

[bimble]

This is one of the reasons that railing against the patriarchy is pissing in the wind.

Stand-up pissing in the wind presumably. Tricky business.

It's true there's a big problem with women actively participating in & perpetuating the same inauthentic performances of femininity / 'hotness' that porn culture has fed us.
'Female Chauvinist Pigs' by Ariel Levy is a decent look at this for instance, 'raunch culture' she calls it. She says that it no longer makes sense to blame men and the main issue now is how women sexually objectify themselves & other women etc. But does that mean we should just give up?

 

[Pickman's model]

Erm, even women can be misogynistic. They can be the worst. It's the grannies, not the dads, who preside over fgm ceremonies. People buy into the culture. Everyone does: they want to fit in, be accepted, gain authority. This is one of the reasons that railing against the patriarchy is pissing in the wind.

having slept on the matter i think it's absolutely appalling to say all porn - every erotick depiction of sex - is misogynistick. it's saying women can derive no pleasure from the depiction of sex and all such depiction is oppressive. i do not believe that to be the case.

 

[peterkro]

having slept on the matter i think it's absolutely appalling to say all porn - every erotick depiction of sex - is misogynistick. it's saying women can derive no pleasure from the depiction of sex and all such depiction is oppressive. i do not believe that to be the case.

Had me thinking "is gay male porn misogynistic"? To some extent possibly but all?

 

[Pickman's model]

Had me thinking "is gay male porn misogynistic"? To some extent possibly but all?

it seems that from the dawn of time, from the earliest day of recorded history, throughout the histories of art, literature, film, theatre, that every single depiction of sex designed to arouse - no matter whether straight, bi, gay, lesbian, whatever - without exception these have been misogynistick. Sasaferrato and bluescreen agree this and they are honourable posters.

 

[Ranbay]

Is your own home made porn with the wife misogynistick?