Pop and Rock Stars... and underage girls
- Thread starter LiamO
- Start date
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
so why do you believe Savile was guilty with no evidence of guilt, no court cases etc?
RainbowTown
Well-Known Member
How many "young girls" put in any complaint of sexual assault against Bowie whatsoever during his lifetime and, especially, since his death? Either here or in the US? Especially if,as you said, "sexual practices with young girls has been documented plenty of times." Where? List it, or some of it? Especially those that have resulted in charges or any type of investigation.
1927
Funnier than he thinks he is.
One of the reasons none of that exists is that these girls did not see it as rape or abuse, it was different times etc., and they were willing participants. That does not however make it right. Plus there is a 6 years astute of limitations on this type of offence in use so even if years later they realised that as children they could not have legally consented no prosecution could have been made anyway.
Mattox for instance still speaks fondly of her time with Bowie, but the fact that he fucked her when she was 15 seems on the face of it to be a fact.
RainbowTown
Well-Known Member
So really there is no proof. Simple as that. It's finding guilt by proxy and heresay and tenuous supposition. Where there is no actual evidence of it. Anyone can claim that they slept with someone. Whether it be consenting groupies or whoever. Anyone could turn around and say I slept with somebody consensually at the age of 15, 14, 13 whatever. Somebody could say that about any person - anyone on this board, for instance. Anyone. My point is, you said "sexual practices with young girls" (not one girl, but girls) that has been "documented plenty of times." There's just no proof of that, as no other "young girl" or "girls" - not one- has ever come forward. Even now, two years after his death.
Bowie was certainly sexually promiscious in the 60's, 70's and 80's- including men. As where lots of rock stars and groups (indeed going back to the 50s). Like you said, it was different times. But there is just no real evidence whatsoever that he had "sexual practices" with "young girls". To me anyway. That's just my take. Though he most certainly bedded some of the most beautiful and famous women of his era - and even Mick Jagger! Oh, to be a fly on that wall!
Raheem
Well-Known Member
The crux of all this is that what you say is only true if your definition of a fact is "anything that anyone ever says".
It's a while since I read through the various accounts given by LM and her friend Sable, but they are totally at odds one with another, to the extent that there is no real possibility of reading them all and having any confidence that any part of them is true. They can't possibly be 100% true because of all the contradictions. (Which, of course, is different from saying that no part of them can possibly be true.)
From memory, LM originally had the episode starting with her being picked out of the crowd at a Bowie concert at Long Beach in 1973 as a suitable shag for Bowie, by his bodyguard. Bowie and her (and, in some versions, Sable too) then arrange to have lunch the next day and spend the rest of the day on an extended date at various LA bars before going back to his hotel and spending all night together until they are woken by Angie Bowie the next morning.
The major problem with this tale is that Bowie actually performed at the Hollywood Palladium the day after the Long Beach concert, so it can't possibly have happened. I don't know if Lm became aware of this difficulty or what, but in later versions she starts the story two days earlier. She gets invited, either by word-of-mouth or by a phonecall from Bowie's people, on a date with Bowie, and the next day a limo comes to pick her up from her mum's house. At the end of the story, instead of being disturbed by Bowie's wife, Bowie gives her a thankyou gift of a handful of tickets to the concert where the story had started in the earlier version.
There's also the question of who Bowie had sex with. In some versions, it's just Lori, and in some Lori makes the charitable suggestion that Sable should join them. When Sable has told the story, it's Sable who has sex with Bowie and she has no idea where Lori has disappeared to. Sable's version also has a different beginning, where the girls sneak into Bowie's hotel to track him down.
There's various other issues with the stories, and I can't remember them all, but one is the claim that John Lennon and Yoko Ono popped in to see Bowie while he and Lori were eating in a restaurant. This seems unlikely because, according to other accounts, Bowie and Lennon only met for the first time a couple of years later. And there's another story told by Lori about her having sex with Mick Jagger when they both went to the recording sessions for a Ringo Starr album, but no-one else seems to remember Jagger having been present at these sessions.
Eric Gill was not a great artist.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
I was disappointed to find out that Gill Sans was not a cool female font designer
phillm
Trolling through Life (TM)
That's a matter of opinion certainly very good by any objective standards.
Eric Gill, long dead and widely considered to be one of the greatest and most influential British artists of the 20th century, seems at first to stand apart from all this – and indeed, in the years after MacCarthy’s biography was published, his reputation only grew.
Eric Gill: can we separate the artist from the abuser?
nogojones
spelling is overrated
Was she any good as a comedian?
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
I must have been thinking of his brother Ernie.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
How could law makers possible have thought "OK, Maybe 12 years old is a bit young to fuck little girls. Perhaps we should up the age to 13"?
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
She looks exactly like a typical 15 year old girl to me, and, by all accounts, acted like one.
Are you saying it's OK to have sex with an underage girl because she looks 16?
Nanker Phelge
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
The whole 'baby groupie' scene was pretty ugly and no one comes out of it well.
I wouldn't have a record collection if I suddenly boycotted all those artists involved, but I certainly don't condone their behavior because of their talent.
I wouldn't have a record collection if I suddenly boycotted all those artists involved, but I certainly don't condone their behavior because of their talent.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
It's not about when it's legal to fuck them - that age has been 16 for a long time. 13 is the age at which they are legally deemed to be capable of consent. Which doesn't seem that unreasonable to me - the vast majority of people have reached a level of development by 13 that should enable them to make choices.How could law makers possible have thought "OK, Maybe 12 years old is a bit young to fuck little girls. Perhaps we should up the age to 13"?
It affects what the other party is charged with. Below 13, it's (potentially) rape, on the basis that consent is not able to be given. After 13,it could still be rape, if non-consensual, but could also be one of the other range of child sex offences.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Here's a new one that ought to go down about as well as the Bowie stuff or the Iggy Pop stuff...
www.reuters.com
I wonder who will believe her, in the absence of evidence.
Bob Dylan sued for alleged sexual abuse of 12-year-old in 1960s
An unnamed woman has sued folk singer-songwriter Bob Dylan alleging he sexually abused her after giving her drugs and alcohol in 1965 when she was 12 years old.
www.reuters.com
I wonder who will believe her, in the absence of evidence.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Not sure I can handle posters calling for nuance or justifying this shit.Here's a new one that ought to go down about as well as the Bowie stuff or the Iggy Pop stuff...
Bob Dylan sued for alleged sexual abuse of 12-year-old in 1960s
An unnamed woman has sued folk singer-songwriter Bob Dylan alleging he sexually abused her after giving her drugs and alcohol in 1965 when she was 12 years old.
I wonder who will believe her, in the absence of evidence.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Here's a new one that ought to go down about as well as the Bowie stuff or the Iggy Pop stuff...
Bob Dylan sued for alleged sexual abuse of 12-year-old in 1960s
An unnamed woman has sued folk singer-songwriter Bob Dylan alleging he sexually abused her after giving her drugs and alcohol in 1965 when she was 12 years old.
I wonder who will believe her, in the absence of evidence.
If true, it's unlikely to be the only case. It's unfortunate that Reuters have shoddily messed up either on the year this is alleged to have happened or the current age of the complainant.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
andysays
Love and solidarity
And even the reference to a "56 year old claim" appears to be a quote from Dylan's spokesperson.
According to the BBC story, the actual legal claim was made very recently
BTW, I'm not suggesting that anyone should draw any conclusions from the delay in making the claim or even the fact that it was made the day before the closure of this legal deadline, just trying to clarify what has actually happened.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Dylan was going out with Sarah from 1964 and married her in 1965.Here's a new one that ought to go down about as well as the Bowie stuff or the Iggy Pop stuff...
Bob Dylan sued for alleged sexual abuse of 12-year-old in 1960s
An unnamed woman has sued folk singer-songwriter Bob Dylan alleging he sexually abused her after giving her drugs and alcohol in 1965 when she was 12 years old.
I wonder who will believe her, in the absence of evidence.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
TBF, that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't up to anything else...
Reno
The In Kraut
For most of the six week period when the abuse was alleged to have taken place, Dylan was touring the West Coast and the UK, some of which has been documented in Don't Look Back, the Pennebaker documentary about Dylan. Doesn't mean he couldn't have popped back to NYC to abuse the girl during breaks but together with the time passed since, they will have a tough time proving the abuse took place.
deadline.com
consequence.net
Bob Dylan Sued For Sexually Abusing A Minor In 1965
A woman has filed a lawsuit against Bob Dylan saying he groomed and sexually assaulted her in 1965 in New York City when she was 12.
deadline.com
Bob Dylan denies claim that he sexually abused a 12-year-old in 1965
A lawsuit alleges that Bob Dylan groomed and sexually abused a 12-year-old girl in 1965. "The 56-year-old claim is untrue and will be vigorously defended," a spokesperson said.
consequence.net
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh you'd have thought that before submitting the papers the lawyers would have examined the dylan chronology to ensure they wouldn't come unstuck on something like him not being where their client said he wasFor most of the six week period when the abuse was alleged to have taken place, Dylan was touring the West Coast and the UK, some of which has been documented in Don't Look Back, the Pennebaker documentary about Dylan. Doesn't mean he couldn't have popped back to NYC to abuse the girl during breaks but together with the time passed since, they will have a tough time proving the abuse took place.
Bob Dylan Sued For Sexually Abusing A Minor In 1965
A woman has filed a lawsuit against Bob Dylan saying he groomed and sexually assaulted her in 1965 in New York City when she was 12.
Bob Dylan denies claim that he sexually abused a 12-year-old in 1965
A lawsuit alleges that Bob Dylan groomed and sexually abused a 12-year-old girl in 1965. "The 56-year-old claim is untrue and will be vigorously defended," a spokesperson said.
editor
hiraethified
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes, you'd have thought her lawyers would have done some sort of due diligence on the chronology
regardless of any merits her case may have, it doesn't speak to her attorneys' competence
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Yes, and why its 'different' for cool progressive musicians as opposed to minor royals and politicians
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
It isn't.
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