Policing in parts of the UK is "broken" - Police Federation Chief

[Pickman's model]

It’s a series of five lectures. The first is about Chicago. At least two others are from the Cambridge enthusiasts noted above, rooted in the MSt. (Which Peter Neyroud went through, before doing his PhD with Sherman.) Betsy Stanko and Nick Tilley were - likewise - at the absolute forefront of pushing for EBP.

It’s an entirely unrepresentative sample of five leading enthusiasts. It’s not even worth quibbling with - it says absolutely nothing about real world policing practice, any more than a journal with the words “evidence” and “police” in its title identifies that evidence based policing was happening.

(I’d bet pounds to pennies that over 90% of forces couldn’t even access such journals before the CoP gave them Athens access (tbf I’d wager that less than a quarter of forces use it to access journals even now), and I’d wager that fewer than one in ten moderately senior officers has the ability to interpret and assess academic “evidence” anyhows.)

you didn't ask about real world policing practice, you started off by saying no cop ever looked at ebp until austerity & pccs and you've been shifting your goalposts ever since.

 

[dessiato]

About 15 Years ago I was talking with a police superintendent who said that the type of policing now in the UK was what people wanted. He insisted that all the public wanted was that they responded to the big crimes, the headline cases, and that the public didn't care about the small things. He said that that was all they were going to do in future. It seems he was right , and my protestations were in vain.

 

[mrs quoad]

From an academic perspective, PCCs + austerity mean that forces are actually looking towards evidence based practice for, perhaps, the first time ever.

I stand by that

And every other post I’ve made here.

And that’s the last I’ll be engaging with your pedantry

 

[SpookyFrank]

Here are the horribly under-resourced Greater Manchester Police man-marking the EDL earlier today, with some horses in case the fash brought cavalry:

 

[mauvais]

Here are the horribly under-resourced Greater Manchester Police man-marking the EDL earlier today, with some horses in case the fash brought cavalry:

They'll be bussed in from neighbouring counties as Tactical Support or whatever.

 

[SpookyFrank]

They'll be bussed in from neighbouring counties as Tactical Support or whatever.

But enough about the EDL etc...

GMP have their own in-house specialist public order unit FWIW.

 

[A380]

Here are the horribly under-resourced Greater Manchester Police man-marking the EDL earlier today, with some horses in case the fash brought cavalry:

Whoever was old bill tactical commander for that was deffo overtly taking the piss out of the EDL...

 

[SpookyFrank]

Whoever was old bill tactical commander for that was deffo overtly taking the piss out of the EDL...

Taking the piss out of the overtime budget more like.

 

[A380]

Taking the piss out of the overtime budget more like.

Nah, they will all be on rest day working with notice so no pay just a rest day cancelled and added to their leave.

 

[kebabking]

There was an EDL march in Worcester a couple of months ago - along with a supposed counter demo, though I never saw them - the cover for it came from West Mercia (which Worcestershire is in), West Midlands, Gloucestershire, Staffordshire and Warwickshire (Warwickshire is in a 'strategic partnership' with West Mercia - back office, call handling, procurement etc... and probably most other things).

 

[Celyn]

Policing in parts of the UK is broken, says Police Federation chief
...

Which Police Federation? Ah, the Police Federation of England and Wales. Sorry, it's a not-very-relevant remark, but I do get so bored with that sort of headline. It's like BBC news when it says that the Education Secretary said X, or the Health Secretary said Y.

 

[Celyn]

Yep, from vehicles via uniforms to paperclips, joint purchasing could provide big savings.

Around 10 years ago, Worthing Borough Council & Adur District Council combined their management structure & services, saving millions, helping to protect front-line services. An interesting experiment, leaving the 2 councils politically independent of each other, whilst jointly delivering services in a more cost effective way.

Just having one Chief Executive, the very cool Alex Bailey - former bass player with 80s band The Mighty Wah, saves somewhere around £50-75k pa per council. Although, he's gone one step further now, running the 2 councils 3 days a week, whilst working for the NHS 2 days a week, in order to join-up local services between the two councils & the NHS.

Nice bit of 'out of the box thinking' all round - Police forces need to be doing the same.

That is interesting. Does it function well? I mean, are both council areas equally served or are there areas in which needs are different and, if so, are the differing needs adequately met? I don't know the place, so both council areas might be identical for all I know.

 

[Celyn]

Here are the horribly under-resourced Greater Manchester Police man-marking the EDL earlier today, with some horses in case the fash brought cavalry:

Heh. So is that tiny bunch all that the EDL shower could assemble?

 

[cupid_stunt]

That is interesting. Does it function well? I mean, are both council areas equally served or are there areas in which needs are different and, if so, are the differing needs adequately met? I don't know the place, so both council areas might be identical for all I know.

There are differences between the two, I don't know all the details, it's a bit confusing as we still have a two tier system - Borough/District councils & the County Council delivering different services. One that jumps to mind is housing, Worthing's social housing is managed by a housing association, whereas Adur directly manages their's, so no sharing for services in that area of operations.

Basically, both council's still set their own budget for the various services they maintain, but those services are then delivered by the joint management structure and work force within the budget set for each council area. So, for example, I assume both have a similar a budget per household for rubbish collection, which is provided by the joint 'Adur & Worthing Councils' branded dustcarts & direct work-force. Savings are made by having just one set of managers, joint buying of vehicles, bins, etc., and by sharing one operational yard.

Overall it does seem to work well, I am not aware of any differences between the delivery of services before & after they combined the management structure and work force. I know there's a hell of a lot less managers, which IIRC was managed by natural turnover & voluntary redundancies. I do know that many millions have been saved, thus helping to protect front-line services, they were the first councils nationally to do this, they are held up as an example to others, and they have shared their experience with many other councils across the country.

It does strike me as a bit of a win-win situation.

Actually just found this page, which explains in a bit more detail:

The original goal was to create a single, senior officer structure and shared services across the two councils and to deliver savings and efficiencies for both councils. This innovative, groundbreaking project, the first of its kind nationally, was supported from the start by Improvement and Efficiency South East who, since then, have gone on to share this approach with many other councils regionally and nationally.

The single senior officer team was created in April 2008 and since then all services (except Adur Homes, Worthing Leisure and Worthing revenues and benefits) have become joint teams, providing joint services to the people of Adur and Worthing.

Partnership working - Adur & Worthing Councils

ETA - Improvement and Efficiency South East, mentioned above, seems an interesting operation:

iESE is the public sectors transformation partner. Whilst iESE is evidence driven, unlike a consultancy iESE doesn’t just write reports but ensures that results are delivered. iESE has a track record for innovation having been reinventing public services since 2004.

Created by local authorities as a shared resource to transform public services and retain experience within the sector, iESE has supported a wide range of transformations throughout the UK. From the first merger of the management of two councils (Adur District Council with Worthing Borough Council) to the complete reorganisation of Northern Ireland local government (from 26 councils to 11).

About iESE

 

[agricola]

Yep, from vehicles via uniforms to paperclips, joint purchasing could provide big savings.

Around 10 years ago, Worthing Borough Council & Adur District Council combined their management structure & services, saving millions, helping to protect front-line services. An interesting experiment, leaving the 2 councils politically independent of each other, whilst jointly delivering services in a more cost effective way.

Just having one Chief Executive, the very cool Alex Bailey - former bass player with 80s band The Mighty Wah, saves somewhere around £50-75k pa per council. Although, he's gone one step further now, running the 2 councils 3 days a week, whilst working for the NHS 2 days a week, in order to join-up local services between the two councils & the NHS.

Nice bit of 'out of the box thinking' all round - Police forces need to be doing the same.

The problem there is that a large majority of the management structure of the Police cannot be amalgamated like that; it is by necessity territorial and needs to be intrusive if it is to do its job properly. You could reform some parts of it such as initial training and some purchasing (though even things like vehicles, uniforms and computer systems would still need considerable variation between forces because their needs are so different) but this idea that there are huge efficiencies to be made in the current system is a bit of myth. You'd get more benefit from scrapping PCCs (indeed you'd have to scrap PCCs if you ever wanted to bring in true national-level working).

 

[SpookyFrank]

Nah, they will all be on rest day working with notice so no pay just a rest day cancelled and added to their leave.

And I'm sure they weren't short of volunteers to walk slowly from the station to the nearest wetherspoons and back in lieu of a day's actual work.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

This chap isn't happy.

I’m a police officer in London. Here’s why we’ve lost control of the streets | Anonymous

 

[Poi E]

"I’ve faced the aftermath of knife crime and seen colleagues stabbed. Cuts mean we can’t keep ourselves or the public safe."

hmm.

 

[Poi E]

Surprised as all hell when I saw a met officer attending to a highly distressed woman on the street yesterday, in a very concerned and patient manner. Serving as social services now, too.

 

[Pickman's model]

Surprised as all hell when I saw a met officer attending to a highly distressed woman on the street yesterday, in a very concerned and patient manner. Serving as social services now, too.

Nothing new there

 

[A380]

Surprised as all hell when I saw a met officer attending to a highly distressed woman on the street yesterday, in a very concerned and patient manner. Serving as social services now, too.

‘Social services’ is about 25/30% of the work load of old bill. Always has been- well I imagine pre WW2 it was probably more like 50% - that’s what the majority of pre-war Women Police Officers were resourced for, and even up to the abolition of ‘women police officer departments’ in the 70s they still did a lot of what Social Setvices do today.

The you can add working with people with mental ill health- now filling the massive gaps in provision- and up to about 2010 when they were the primary crisis response over much of the country- which was why some cops got up to half a day of training in mental ill health.

Then of course you have to add in all the time in preventing revolution through the policing of working class public order, which after all, is why old Bobby Peel and Richard Mayne got the funding in the first place and a big part of why from Victorian times Great Britain (note the area) has been a ‘country of riots and not revolutions’.

There has never been a time where the reduction and detection of crime has ever been more than a third of police activity. It’s why May lost the police dressing room immediately with her ‘your job is to cut crime nothing more nothing less’ comment her 12 year old SpAD wrote... Which at least saved time.

 

[The39thStep]

‘Social services’ is about 25/30% of the work load of old bill. Always has been- well I imagine pre WW2 it was probably more like 50% - that’s what the majority of pre-war Women Police Officers were resourced for, and even up to the abolition of ‘women police officer departments’ in the 70s they still did a lot of what Social Setvices do today.

The you can add working with people with mental ill health- now filling the massive gaps in provision- and up to about 2010 when they were the primary crisis response over much of the country- which was why some cops got up to half a day of training in mental ill health.

Then of course you have to add in all the time in preventing revolution through the policing of working class public order, which after all, is why old Bobby Peel and Richard Mayne got the funding in the first place and a big part of why from Victorian times Great Britain (note the area) has been a ‘country of riots and not revolutions’.

There has never been a time where the reduction and detection of crime has ever been more than a third of police activity. It’s why May lost the police dressing room immediately with her ‘your job is to cut crime nothing more nothing less’ comment her 12 year old SpAD wrote... Which at least saved time.

I'm not sure on what you are basing the guestimate of 50% pre war but you are right about the welfare aspects of policing and the changing responsibilities in policing. You can also add increased legal responsibilities for children and adults safeguarding, offender management , counter terrorism/prevent ,trading standards, social media , missing persons to that list. On the other hand the time spent preventing revolution must be pretty low these days.

 

[A380]

I'm not sure on what you are basing the guestimate of 50% pre war but you are right about the welfare aspects of policing and the changing responsibilities in policing. You can also add increased legal responsibilities for children and adults safeguarding, offender management , counter terrorism/prevent ,trading standards, social media , missing persons to that list. On the other hand the time spent preventing revolution must be pretty low these days.

Guesstimate, based on the very scant histories of Police Woman Depatments, almost always just footnoted on other histories ( who’d have thought it) and the increase and development in the profession of Social Work over the same time period. There’s probably a doctorate in there for someone...