Policing in parts of the UK is "broken" - Police Federation Chief

[redaligon]

Policing in parts of the UK is broken, says Police Federation chief

Do you agree? I've seen quite a few officers say "The job's f***ed" and there seems to be universal agreement that they simply don't have the resources they need, and as a result it impacts on what they can do. For example, small stuff like noise complaints/graffiti/low value thefts end up never being investigated simply because there aren't enough resources in place to deal with it, and the force has had to prioritise stuff like assaults/rapes etc at the expense of other stuff. Add in that we never really see bobbies on the beat anymore (something that was commonplace until a few decades ago) and I think there's definitely. However last year I was talking to an officer about the effects of the cuts and I said that "the job's f***ed mate" and he gave me a right earful for it, saying I was in the wrong and that he felt they were doing a great job when considering the resources they have. I never said they weren't, just that when you look at the amount of officers now and the slashed budgets they have, compared to maybe 10-20 years ago, it looks pretty bleak.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'd love to stick up for the police but my mum says I shouldn't be friends with racists.

 

[mauvais]

In Greater Manchester certainly policing is fucked. Burglary and car theft are amongst the "small stuff" that there's no resources for.

Lawless Manchester: why are the police not arresting people?

It certainly is bleak. Eventually there will be direct consequences in some form.

 

[agricola]

Policing in parts of the UK is broken, says Police Federation chief

Do you agree? I've seen quite a few officers say "The job's f***ed" and there seems to be universal agreement that they simply don't have the resources they need, and as a result it impacts on what they can do. For example, small stuff like noise complaints/graffiti/low value thefts end up never being investigated simply because there aren't enough resources in place to deal with it, and the force has had to prioritise stuff like assaults/rapes etc at the expense of other stuff. Add in that we never really see bobbies on the beat anymore (something that was commonplace until a few decades ago) and I think there's definitely. However last year I was talking to an officer about the effects of the cuts and I said that "the job's f***ed mate" and he gave me a right earful for it, saying I was in the wrong and that he felt they were doing a great job when considering the resources they have. I never said they weren't, just that when you look at the amount of officers now and the slashed budgets they have, compared to maybe 10-20 years ago, it looks pretty bleak.

An officer said the job wasn't f**ked? You should complain about this outright betrayal of everything the Police in this country have believed in since 1829.

 

[A380]

TJF.

 

[A380]

Policing in parts of the UK is broken, says Police Federation chief

Do you agree? I've seen quite a few officers say "The job's f***ed" and there seems to be universal agreement that they simply don't have the resources they need, and as a result it impacts on what they can do. For example, small stuff like noise complaints/graffiti/low value thefts end up never being investigated simply because there aren't enough resources in place to deal with it, and the force has had to prioritise stuff like assaults/rapes etc at the expense of other stuff. Add in that we never really see bobbies on the beat anymore (something that was commonplace until a few decades ago) and I think there's definitely. However last year I was talking to an officer about the effects of the cuts and I said that "the job's f***ed mate" and he gave me a right earful for it, saying I was in the wrong and that he felt they were doing a great job when considering the resources they have. I never said they weren't, just that when you look at the amount of officers now and the slashed budgets they have, compared to maybe 10-20 years ago, it looks pretty bleak.

This officer you were speaking to, did they have bling like this on the epaulets? If so that would explain it.

 

[Grump]

Although many people find it hard to support the police the truth is that when their resources are cut and numbers reduced those that suffer are the weak, vulnerable and elderly. An old person who has to barricade their house against burglars or should is frightened to go out because they will be attacked will benefit from more and better policing. Concerns about abuses carried out by some police officers should not overshadow the role they have to play in defending those against criminal scum who prey on those who can't defend themselves.

 

[mrs quoad]

Idk. Crime stats suggest it isn’t getting that much worse irl, iirc. Murder and knife crime aside. (Ok, a look at the stats this week do suggest overall no change, but shifts within categories - 8% more theft, for example. And they suggest that they’ve stabilised this year, after some years of falls.)

From an academic perspective, PCCs + austerity mean that forces are actually looking towards evidence based practice for, perhaps, the first time ever.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sussex police seem to be doing better than a lot, they have made various savings by sharing some resources & specialist teams with Surrey police, and have secured an £12 pa increase in the police precept of the council tax in order to recruit 200 more officers, having lost about 700 over the last 8 years.

 

[agricola]

From an academic perspective, PCCs + austerity mean that forces are actually looking towards evidence based practice for, perhaps, the first time ever.

Indeed. One of the results of all these cuts is that, in some areas, some police leaders have actually looked at how to do things better and begun to implement them - though how much of that was actually intended by the Home Office is up for debate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Idk. Crime stats suggest it isn’t getting that much worse irl, iirc. Murder and knife crime aside.

From an academic perspective, PCCs + austerity mean that forces are actually looking towards evidence based practice for, perhaps, the first time ever.

from an academic perspective things like the journals 'police practice and research', 'policing: a journal of policy and practice', 'the police journal: theories, practice, principles' show that this has been going on for some time and predates not only pccs but also austerity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed. One of the results of all these cuts is that, in some areas, some police leaders have actually looked at how to do things better and begun to implement them - though how much of that was actually intended by the Home Office is up for debate.

the professional / academic interest in evidence-based policing dates back many years and can be evidenced from among other things the updates sent out by the library at the college of policing and its previous incarnations.

 

[mrs quoad]

from an academic perspective things like the journals 'police practice and research', 'policing: a journal of policy and practice', 'the police journal: theories, practice, principles' show that this has been going on for some time and predates not only pccs but also austerity.

Haaaaahahaha.

Yeah, but seriously. This is the problem with looking at academic journals and thinking that what they wrote about is / was in any sense connected to actual changes in U.K. policing practice, or the U.K. police having any interest whatsoever in academic or research evidence.

 

[Pickman's model]

Haaaaahahaha.

Yeah, but seriously. This is the problem with looking at academic journals and thinking that what they wrote about is / was in any sense connected to actual changes in U.K. policing practice, or the U.K. police having any interest whatsoever in academic or research evidence.

yeh. but let's look at what you said before:

From an academic perspective, PCCs + austerity mean that forces are actually looking towards evidence based practice for, perhaps, the first time ever.

which is rather different from your goalpost-shifting post 13

 

[mrs quoad]

the professional / academic interest in evidence-based policing dates back many years and can be evidenced from among other things the updates sent out by the library at the college of policing and its previous incarnations.

The police didn’t give a shit about the NPIA, and mostly see COP as a pain in the arse / omnishambles.

There are other more driven / invested orgs, like the Society for Evidence Based Policing, which requires more of an active buy in from forces / coppers. And partnerships like the Open University’s, and a few that were fired up by Police Knowledge Fund / Police Transformation Fund money.

But any substantive or meaningful change at anything beyond the level of individual Chief Constables (eg Fahy sponsored a stack of research and evidence based initiatives in GMP, almost all of which died the second he left), and any substantive or meaningful buy into research, can really be located in the last 10 years. If not less. And it has been a huge shift.

Some forces even coordinate which research projects they’ll support these days, and look to gain sth from them (!) Certainly not all of them. But a few pioneers. (Eg WYFi, Lancs’ innovation hub).

 

[mrs quoad]

yeh. but let's look at what you said before:
which is rather different from your goalpost-shifting post 13

Police are looking towards evidence based practice for the first time, yeah. I stand by that. And it’s mostly been driven by austerity, with some influence from PCCs. I completely stand by that, on the basis of dozens of discussions / interviews with frontline, middle management and senior / chief officer level civilian and warranted police staff.

 

[Pickman's model]

The police didn’t give a shit about the NPIA, and mostly see COP as a pain in the arse / omnishambles.

There are other more driven / invested orgs, like the Society for Evidence Based Policing, which requires more of an active buy in from forces / coppers. And partnerships like the Open University’s, and a few that were fired up by Police Knowledge Fund / Police Transformation Fund money.

But any substantive or meaningful change at anything beyond the level of individual Chief Constables (eg Fahy sponsored a stack of research and evidence based initiatives in GMP, almost all of which died the second he left), and any substantive or meaningful buy into research, can really be located in the last 10 years. If not less. And it has been a huge shift.

Some forces even coordinate which research projects they’ll support these days, and look to gain sth from them (!) Certainly not all of them. But a few pioneers. (Eg WYFi, Lancs’ innovation hub).

all of which is rather different from your original claim.

 

[A380]

Idk. Crime stats suggest it isn’t getting that much worse irl, iirc. Murder and knife crime aside. (Ok, a look at the stats this week do suggest overall no change, but shifts within categories - 8% more theft, for example. And they suggest that they’ve stabilised this year, after some years of falls.)

From an academic perspective, PCCs + austerity mean that forces are actually looking towards evidence based practice for, perhaps, the first time ever.

But it’s much harder to meddle with murder statistics than volume crime figures. You can, after all, just count the bodies. Police reported volume crime figures have a very tenuous relationship with actual levels of crime. Especially now some forces are struggling even to answer the phones to record crimes. The British crime survey is a bit better but has significant flaws- not recording crimes against children or crimes that don’t have a single victim for a start.

Lies, damn lies and police crime figures...

As to evidence based policing. There was some great work done in the early 2000s, the journals Pickman's model refer to are beacons on good practice, and the work done by the new school at Cambridge is pretty good. The society for evidenced based policing could had been great, but has foundered due to a lack of support.( Eviscerating the NPIA and then replacing it with the College of Policing didn’t help. )

But despite the propaganda on evidenced based policing, cuts mean hardly any of this is being operationalised. With resource levels meaning most forces are barely meeting phone targets and putting all uniform resource into pushing panda cars to try to keep up with the jobs coming in, and the people in whatever CID is called this week submerged under a paper - well computer based case management system- tsunami there just isn’t the capacity.

Policing is pretty fucked right now, and just the the rest of the public sector, it’s not getting better soon.

 

[mrs quoad]

But it’s much harder to meddle with murder statistics than volume crime figures. You can, after all, just count the bodies. Police reported volume crime figures have a very tenuous relationship with actual levels of crime. Especially now some forces are struggling even to answer the phones to record crimes. The British crime survey is a bit better but has significant flaws- not recording crimes against children or crimes that don’t have a single victim for a start.

Lies, damn lies and police crime figures...

As to evidence based policing. There was some great work done in the early 2000s, the journals Pickman's model refer to are beacons on good practice, and the work done by the new school at Cambridge is pretty good.( Eviscerating the NPIA and replacing it with the College of Policing didn’t help though. )

But despite the propaganda on evidenced based policing, cuts mean hardly any of this is being operationalised. With resource levels meaning most forces are barley meeting phone targets and putting all uniform resource into pushing panda cars to try to keep up with the jobs coming in, and the people in whatever CID is called this week submerged under a paper - well computer based case management system- tsunami there just isn’t the capacity.

Policing is pretty fucked right now, and just the the rest of the public sector, it’s not getting better soon.

I worked on the Cambridge programme.

I’m not entirely unaware of what’s going on in the landscape. It’s entirely reasonable to see its set up, and the work of Larry Sherman in particular, as being probably the root of many of the changes happening now - which were having a pretty piecemeal effect until austerity and PCCs began to drive far more substantive national changes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Police are looking towards evidence based practice for the first time, yeah. I stand by that. And it’s mostly been driven by austerity, with some influence from PCCs. I completely stand by that, on the basis of dozens of discussions / interviews with frontline, middle management and senior / chief officer level civilian and warranted police staff.

and i'm glad you do. so you won't be interested by this or this

 

[mrs quoad]

and i'm glad you do. so you won't be interested by this or this

The very first sentence of the second link: “There have been calls for research evidence to be drawn into police practice.”

What does that tell you? Really? In 2009?

Edit: I really don’t think you’ve even read the abstract of that second piece.

 

[agricola]

the professional / academic interest in evidence-based policing dates back many years and can be evidenced from among other things the updates sent out by the library at the college of policing and its previous incarnations.

They are fantastic at creating work for themselves, both in terms of coming up with the initial proposals and then the panicked defence of the same after they cause a huge row - last year's mootings of a police reserve for instance (which was hidden away alongside other gems such as sacking people and then readmitting them when they had obtained skills).

I am not sure how much of it was actually evidence based, mind - or how much the improvements brought in recently are down to them.

 

[cupid_stunt]

On a side note, Sussex & Surrey has combined their vehicle fleet buying operation to maximise discounts & savings, and are also buying some electric cars to make savings.

Electric cars will be used for non-response, unmarked police vehicles across Sussex and Surrey, Sussex Police and Crime Commissioner Katy Bourne has announced.
30 BMW i3s per force are set to be deployed on division and in departmental unmarked roles.

Personally I think they could have saved more by buying 30 of these...

Spoiler: lol

 

[Pickman's model]

The very first sentence of the second link: “There have been calls for research evidence to be drawn into police practice.”

What does that tell you? Really? In 2009?

Edit: I really don’t think you’ve even read the abstract of that second piece.

read the second sentence

 

[mrs quoad]

read the second sentence

They examine it, and point out that there’s virtually fuck all because coppers aren’t buying into it and the evidence base they’d be interested in (operationally) is virtually non existent anyway.

Coppers ignore evidence because they prefer traditional practice - that’s an outstanding summary of the pre-austerity context. Forces - and chief officers - now routinely say that they’ve been forced to look for new ways of working because they just don’t have the officer numbers. They consistently state that they’ve been pushed into EBP by austerity.

 

[A380]

...
Personally I think they could have saved more by buying 30 of these...

Spoiler: lol

View attachment 150143

A less popular innovation.

(There are quite a lot of vehicle buying consortia in cop land. But it’s was always bizarre that 42 forces brought the same shitty Astra diesels but didn’t get any sort of group discount. It still makes little sense there isn’t a national police vehicle purchase framework as everybody ends up with much the same stuff anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

They examine it, and point out that there’s virtually fuck all because coppers aren’t buying into it and the evidence base they’d be interested in (operationally) is virtually non existent anyway.

Coppers ignore evidence because they prefer traditional practice - that’s an outstanding summary of the pre-austerity context. Forces - and chief officers - now routinely say that they’ve been forced to look for new ways of working because they just don’t have the officer numbers. They consistently state that they’ve been pushed into EBP by austerity.

View attachment 150146

but not i note quibbling with the first link which is contemperaneous

 

[mrs quoad]

but not i note quibbling with the first link which is contemperaneous

It’s a series of five lectures. The first is about Chicago. At least two others are from the Cambridge enthusiasts noted above, rooted in the MSt. (Which Peter Neyroud went through, before doing his PhD with Sherman.) Betsy Stanko and Nick Tilley were - likewise - at the absolute forefront of pushing for EBP.

It’s an entirely unrepresentative sample of five leading enthusiasts. It’s not even worth quibbling with - it says absolutely nothing about real world policing practice, any more than a journal with the words “evidence” and “police” in its title identifies that evidence based policing was happening.

(I’d bet pounds to pennies that over 90% of forces couldn’t even access such journals before the CoP gave them Athens access (tbf I’d wager that less than a quarter of forces use it to access journals even now), and I’d wager that fewer than one in ten moderately senior officers has the ability to interpret and assess academic “evidence” anyhows.)

 

[DotCommunist]

round here in cash strapped Northamptonshire they closed Corby police station. Town of 70,000 souls and areas of deprivation and a rep for crime, no station. They covered Kettering after dark as well, our station closes at 7pm. I suppose W'boro and Northampton town forces cover now.
Libraries getting closed as well,child and adult social care slashed. erg

 

[cupid_stunt]

View attachment 150148

A less popular innovation.

(There are quite a lot of vehicle buying consortia in cop land. But it’s was always bizarre that 42 forces brought the same shitty Astra diesels but didn’t get any sort of group discount. It still makes little sense there isn’t a national police vehicle purchase framework as everybody ends up with much the same stuff anyway.

Yep, from vehicles via uniforms to paperclips, joint purchasing could provide big savings.

Around 10 years ago, Worthing Borough Council & Adur District Council combined their management structure & services, saving millions, helping to protect front-line services. An interesting experiment, leaving the 2 councils politically independent of each other, whilst jointly delivering services in a more cost effective way.

Just having one Chief Executive, the very cool Alex Bailey - former bass player with 80s band The Mighty Wah, saves somewhere around £50-75k pa per council. Although, he's gone one step further now, running the 2 councils 3 days a week, whilst working for the NHS 2 days a week, in order to join-up local services between the two councils & the NHS.

Nice bit of 'out of the box thinking' all round - Police forces need to be doing the same.