Police shoot man in forest gate

[Jonti]

The Independent reports today (Ben Russell p2) ...

there were suggestions yesterday that the intelligence indicating that a chemical device was being prepared may have come from the US

Oh dear

The Register's reality-check on the practicalities of such home-made chemical weapons got a link earlier in this thread. It's well worth a read. See Homebrew chemical terror bombs, hype or horror? They conclude

... there are clear and high hurdles that a terror group must overcome before it can turn half-baked plans into reality. So far, aside from ... Aum Shinrikyo ... nobody has

And they point out that the Aum Shinko killer cult "spent $30 million, and had a team of trained scientists, top-class equipment and at least one factory at its disposal."

Early days still, of course. But this is looking to me like a disproportionate response to an overhyped threat imagined on the back of dodgy intelligence (obtained how? one wonders).

A familiar story, sadly.

 

[detective-boy]

He said the facts needed to be established about the suspected threat posed, but added that a sense of "proportionality" was important in such investigations and he could see why the use of about 250 police officers had angered locals. [/I]

Are people really so stupid as to think that 250 officers were all assigned to simultaneously run up the stairs and detain two men ...

 

[lostexpectation]

Are people really so stupid as to think that 250 officers were all assigned to simultaneously run up the stairs and detain two men ...

how many should it have been, I know they were going on about bio/chem searches but how many people does it take to do such a raid and all that goes with it?

...30 ya think


i bet ya theye was aleast 30 designated to that part of the 'running up the stairs' operation

 

[detective-boy]

Great, so they don't have a fucking clue but want us to just get used to them running around shooting people because it's better to be "safe (and shot) than sorry (and not shot)"?

They're not talking about shooting someone. They're talking about having to intervene (searches / arrests) rather than allowing surveillance to continue for longer so more of the picture becomes known. This is not ideal because the less that is known, the more risk there is of an operation going wrong in some way.

 

[lostexpectation]

The manner in which the " substantial" criminal records of the two brothers where released and leaked ( which it turns out was a complete fabrication) was indicitive of the beginings of a concerted smear campain and the attempted nullifiying of any concerted public counter reaction to the operation.

oh tell us more?

http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=7&newsID=6467

Leaflets were circulating in Forest Gate yesterday announcing a meeting next week to discuss the raid.

The leaflet, produced by Newham Respect Party, said the community was "shocked" by claims of a terrorist plot.

It invites people to join an evening with Moazzam Begg, who was detained at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba for more than three years, and questioned the actions of the police. :/

 

[lostexpectation]

They're not talking about shooting someone. They're talking about having to intervene (searches / arrests) rather than allowing surveillance to continue for longer so more of the picture becomes known. This is not ideal because the less that is known, the more risk there is of an operation going wrong in some way.

meanwhile they go in clueless but with their finger on the trigger

 

[detective-boy]

There is a lot of interesting reading on this thread, but I am getting impatient now, why can't the police issue as statement about why the guy was shot?

Neither the police can, or will, release more detailed facts whilst charges are being considered as to do so may prejudice any trial. It's called sub jedice. It's an ancient facet of law in the UK.

 

[detective-boy]

i bet ya theye was aleast 30 designated to that part of the 'running up the stairs' operation

I'd stake an awful lot on the fact that there were not. How many SAS staged the raid on the Iranian embassy, one of the most dangerous intervention operations in recent times? Less than 30. And why? Because the less people involved, the less confusion and the less danger for all concerned. Each actual physical arrest would probably have involved two armed officers and two unarmed officers.

Everyone else would have been involved in some specialist capacity (specially trained in search techniques, scenes of crime, photography, scientists, exhibits officers and whatever, or on cordon duties (as the extent of the operation was such that cordoning a couple of roads was necessary), or was simply on reserve in case something more drastic happened and a full-scale evacuation of a wider area was needed.

 

[detective-boy]

Early days still, of course. But this is looking to me like a disproportionate response to an overhyped threat imagined on the back of dodgy intelligence (obtained how? one wonders).

I think it is worth remembering that the police have no experience of dealing with this type of threat. And there is little scope for them getting advice from elsewhere. They are therefore operating in unknown territory. Would you not rather they erred on the side of caution?

 

[Jonti]

... The manner in which the " substantial" criminal records of the two brothers where released and leaked ( which it turns out was a complete fabrication) was indicitive of the beginings of a concerted smear campain and the attempted nullifiying of any concerted public counter reaction to the operation.

oh tell us more?

Badger Kitten provided this link to a Times piece by David Leppard which states

Government officials said both suspects had “extensive criminal records”. According to a well placed source, Kahar has previous convictions for theft, robbery, burglary and possession of a prohibited weapon involving a “noxious, liquid gas”, said to be CS spray.

I don't know that these prejudicial claims have proved to be lies -- perhaps someone else can comment.

 

[editor]

Would you not rather they erred on the side of caution?

I'd rather they didn't go around shooting unarmed people.

If that's what happened of course.

 

[tarannau]

I don't know about you, but erring on the side of caution would mean not shooting unarmed people.

How many fuck ups do the police need to make before heads roll? It's just mistake after mistake.

 

[Jonti]

I think it is worth remembering that the police have no experience of dealing with this type of threat. And there is little scope for them getting advice from elsewhere. They are therefore operating in unknown territory. Would you not rather they erred on the side of caution?

The lack of experience may flow from the implausibility of the threat. Seriously, we're into the (familiar) realm of fantasy here. Not to say it could never happen, of course. Just to say suchlike chemical weapons are orders of magnitude harder to build and deploy than an ANFO or Mother of Satan device. Of course plenty of folk in the intelligence service know this perfectly well (I hope )

Caution cuts both ways -- it's a balance, and I'd hate to be making the calls. But it would be cautious to consider the credibility of the source of the information. It would be cautious to consider whether a purported threat is credible. So yes, I would rather the police erred on the side of caution, particularly in a climate where politicians, still in power and with a dedicated base of supporters, have dishonestly hyped threats in the past.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I don't know about you, but erring on the side of caution would mean not shooting unarmed people.

How many fuck ups do the police need to make before heads roll? It's just mistake after mistake.

Saying that two unjustified police shootings (assuming that the bloke who got shot was just in his pyjamas) in a year is the same as "just mistake after mistake" is unfair.

Armed police trundle out all over the UK every day, most of them do not shoot anyone, let alone shoot someone without reason. Your point is valid, just the way you put it seemed excessivly tabliodesque.

 

[tarannau]

Erm, we're not talking about two isolated immediate incidents involved armed police in response - this is the second major 'intelligence-led' anti-terrorist operation that has led to an unarmed suspect being shot recently.

That's a lamentable record, whichever way you look at it. And after the misinformation and procrastination spewed in the aftermath of the DeMenezes shooting, the police needed to show best practice, not shoot another unarmed bloke in his own house. It's a bit of a joke sadly - if these are the best and most controlled shooters the force can offer, then I'll take my chances with the terrorists thanks.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Again the media have much to answer for in all of this - in the competition for news and to be first with something that might be a 'scoop' they've turned the whole event into a circus. You'd have thought that after parroting all kinds of information from 'police sources' after the killing of Mr Menendez they'd be more circumspect in allowing heresay 'facts' to add to the confusion of what has actually happened.

Then we have some 'police sources' who have been leaking 'facts' to the press - this seemingly goes against the official police line that they can't comment until the investigation has run its course. Curiously all of these leaks seem to be sow confusion of a positive variety in terms of the actions of the police (eg there was a struggle and a shot was fired).

Perhaps more importantly the consequences of these guys being completely innocent will be far more wide ranging for the muslim population in the UK. The shooting of Menendez no doubt set alarm bells ringing, but to have an innocent muslim shot will you'd have thought will cause even more alarm and mistrust of the police. Of course to many of 'joe public' and the mainstream media this is an "acceptable price to pay" - perhaps that will only change when a white person gets caught up in all of this and is on the receiving end of a policeman's bullet?

Whilst you can understand the police's concern and need to act "just in case" the severity of the consequences of them getting it wrong multiply each time they do. IF these guys are found innocent and IF it is shown that a policeman shot the guy, the police can probably count themselves very lucky that he is still alive.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Erm, we're not talking about two isolated immediate incidents involved armed police in response - this is the second major 'intelligence-led' anti-terrorist operation that has led to an unarmed suspect being shot recently.

That's a lamentable record, whichever way you look at it. And after the misinformation and procrastination spewed in the aftermath of the DeMenezes shooting, the police needed to show best practice, not shoot another unarmed bloke in his own house. It's a bit of a joke sadly - if these are the best and most controlled shooters the force can offer, then I'll take my chances with the terrorists thanks.

I can't remember any recent intelegence led anti terror ops that lead to someone getting shot other than this one, unless you're refering to the stockwell shooting, which isn't exactly recent. (Could be that i've just forgotten about one).

How many other armed anti terror raids are performed without someone getting shot? If it's 2/2 then it's a shit record, if it's 2/100 then it's obviously not so bad. You're claiming a trend that is yet to be proven.

 

[tarannau]

happened.

Perhaps more importantly the consequences of these guys being completely innocent will be far more wide ranging for the muslim population in the UK. The shooting of Menendez no doubt set alarm bells ringing, but to have an innocent muslim shot will you'd have thought will cause even more alarm and mistrust of the police. Of course to many of 'joe public' and the mainstream media this is an "acceptable price to pay" - perhaps that will only change when a white person gets caught up in all of this and is on the receiving end of a policeman's bullet?.

Quite. I thought one of the consequences after the whole Cherry Groce shooting and the subsequent Brixton riots, was that the officers would only be armed if could be assured that they were specifically and well trained, boasting good judgement and high levels of professionalism. Judging from the fuck ups of both these large operations, that doesn't seem to be the case - the Menezes one in particular seems a pathetic shambles.

Let's stop making excuses for fuck ups like this. There's a patronising assumption that these people 'deserved' it in some way, that they had something to hide. Thankfully the media (and St Ian - how the fuck is he still there?) hasn't tried to smear the victim quite yet. But this isn't the way to go building bridges with the muslim community and increasing trust.

No more lip service. People should be taking responsibility for their mistakes.

 

[tarannau]

I can't remember any recent intelegence led anti terror ops that lead to someone getting shot other than this one, unless you're refering to the stockwell shooting, which isn't exactly recent. (Could be that i've just forgotten about one).

How many other armed anti terror raids are performed without someone getting shot? If it's 2/2 then it's a shit record, if it's 2/100 then it's obviously not so bad. You're claiming a trend that is yet to be proven.

I doubt there have been that many operations using over 250 officers in recent times - we've had a fair few raids reported, but very few of that scale. Besides, I think the fairer comparison would be to point how many 'anti terror' raids ended up successfully catching a terrorist, a terrorist cell and/or any compelling evidence.

As far as I can tell, that hasn't happened. Two people shot - no sign of a big bomb, exploding poison vests or even any evidence that they can trumpet about.

That's poor by any standards.

 

[Greebozz]

...The manner in which the " substantial" criminal records of the two brothers where released and leaked ( which it turns out was a complete fabrication) was indicitive of the beginings of a concerted smear campain and the attempted nullifiying of any concerted public counter reaction to the operation....

Just want to pick up on this point, I was watching sky news and a young Asian man who claimed to know the two, was talking freely about one of the brothers wayward past of being a bad boy, but then finding religion and that having sorted him out. Normally people like this, get filmed for the news for about 20 seconds. They let this guy just ramble one for a good two or three minutes. Just pointing that it did not have to be leaked. with friends like that though.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

As DB said the number in the house (ie involved in the bit that resulted in the shooting) won't have been 250. Those would have been to evacuate the area if there was a chemical/explosive threat at which point you'd need to stick up a cordon and start going door to door to get people out. The number of police officers involved is rather irrelevant in my eyes.

However you've got a good point about the sucsess of the anti terror raids and indeed the anti terror legislation so far, not too impressive to date.

 

[Jonti]

But Greebozz, it was leaked by Government officialloonies -- that's the point. Here.

I'd guess the media muppets think if it's OK for government sources to set about prejudicing a future trial, then it's OK for them too

 

[lostexpectation]

Just want to pick up on this point, I was watching sky news and a young Asian man who claimed to know the two, was talking freely about one of the brothers wayward past of being a bad boy, but then finding religion and that having sorted him out. Normally people like this, get filmed for the news for about 20 seconds. They let this guy just ramble one for a good two or three minutes. Just pointing that it did not have to be leaked. with friends like that though.

yeah that one Dimple(sp) from the first day although she didn't say anything bad about could't have talked more, wouldn't want her backing me up!

 

[Pot-Bellied Pig]

I haven't the time to read all the posts...so many.

Without duplication I would like to say that I am not at all surprised by this.

I don't know who shot who...but if you mount raids like this things happen.

What I would say is that if they had found something the police would be crowing about it by now. There certainly would have been a statement just to offset the community tension.

I would hazard a bet they haven't got anything ( this time ). But it brings into clarity how bad the Met have got with the business of detection and how different the operating systems of MI5 are to the domestic police. I mean ..how are you going to disclose the intelligence of our security services when most of it will be inadmissible in a court ? How do you quantify ' specific threat ' when the means of gathering the information cannot be made public ? And then the police get a warrant and you find nothing ? Who do you blame > The police or the spies ? Can't blame the spies they are faceless and protected.

Then you have to look at who the police officer elite actually are . Are they hardened detectives with years of street time and contacts with the community ? Or are they degree burdened fast track officers with less time in the job of a real detective than necessary to be a ' good tec ' and more prone to budget keeping and report writing than thief taking.

Guess what I am trying to say is that I worry at the constant mistakes the police are making and I worry about those that are supposed to ' lead ' as to whether they are actually up to the job. This is the state of the Met now...too easy to get promotion and too obsessed with PC than with keeping right people in the right role.

I fear for the future. This won't be the last one.

 

[JHE]

The police were told that there was an imminent threat of an atrocity. We don't know where that claim came from, but the police insist it was credible. I guess that is because it came from someone who appeared to be in a position to know about the alleged plot.

In those circumstances, what would you have the police do? (i) Ignore the claim, (ii) mount months of spying to see if they can substantiate the claim or (iii) mount a raid to see if they can find the device they've been told about?

I'd rather the police mounted some fruitless raids than that they risked allowing another atrocity.

 

[detective-boy]

I don't know about you, but erring on the side of caution would mean not shooting unarmed people.

IF the operation went out with the intention of shooting someone, then you would have a point.

But it didn't. As you well know. Erring on the side of caution is intervening, with searches or arrests before you may otherwise have done so in less threatening circumstances.

Once an operation is mounted, whatever the circumstances, there must be a thorough risk assessment, proper briefing and competent completion. At that stage individual officers will be responsible for their own actions, including any use of force.

Stupid, simplistic comments like yours do nothing to advance the discussion or to help understanding of the issues.

 

[detective-boy]

It's a bit of a joke sadly - if these are the best and most controlled shooters the force can offer, then I'll take my chances with the terrorists thanks.

Well either join the fucking police and show them how to do it properly or fuck off to Iraq and take your fucking chances then.

Twat.

 

[detective-boy]

...the police can probably count themselves very lucky that he is still alive.

The officer who pulled the trigger probbaly already does. Contrary to the bollocks spouted by some of the twats who post on this site, police officers do not get their rocks off killing people.

 

[Greebozz]

....I'd rather the police mounted some fruitless raids than that they risked allowing another atrocity.

No!! that is a terrible mistake we must not try to foil any terrorist plots or that will make the terrorists angry and they will hurt us, Lets apply the same logic as some people in the anti war movement. Did I also mention we should all feel very guilty as well.

 

[tarannau]

What issues need understanding? That repeated trigger happy errors like help to erode confidence in the police and risk raising racial tension?

There seems to be good excuse for the procedures and failings. Badly planned, poorly executed, inexcusably bad communication (and misinformation in the case of Menezes), leading to tragic operational failings and casualties

Unlike you, I'm not going to play try and continually justify mistakes like this. An honest apology, rather than the mealy mouthed 'toys out of pram'/'we needed to do to it like this' non-apology would be a start.

In the civilian employment repeated mistakes like this would lead to heads rolling. The police should not be different, nor is retiring people on full pensions an effective censure.