Police shoot man in forest gate

[detective-boy]

There's a patronising assumption that these people 'deserved' it in some way, that they had something to hide.

People should be taking responsibility for their mistakes.

Not from the police there isn't. Provide a link to any police press release suggesting that Jean Charles de Menezes in any way "deserved it". Provide a link to any police press release suggesting in any way that the victim of this shooting in any way "deserved it". You won't be able to because it hasn't happened. Do not confuse what (some parts of) the media do with what the police do.

And you have noticed the IPCC enquiries into the events at Stockwell and Forest Gate have you? They are the first aspect of the police "taking responsibility" for what they have done.

 

[detective-boy]

As far as I can tell, that hasn't happened.

The suspects involved in the 21 July incident just wandered into police stations and give themselves up did they?

There have been dozens of operations aimed at identified terrorist threats. A number of trials have taken place. Others are ongoing. Others are still to be held. Just because the news isn't spoon-fed to ignorant, bigoted twats like you doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[detective-boy]

But it brings into clarity how bad the Met have got with the business of detection and how different the operating systems of MI5 are to the domestic police. I mean ..how are you going to disclose the intelligence of our security services when most of it will be inadmissible in a court ? How do you quantify ' specific threat ' when the means of gathering the information cannot be made public ? And then the police get a warrant and you find nothing ? Who do you blame > The police or the spies ? Can't blame the spies they are faceless and protected.

I think you can be sure that some "proper" experienced detectives were involved in this case. I know some of them personally and others by reputation. Although senior officers may be rapidly promoted, they tend to be led by what their operational commanders advise.

There is a difficulty in converting intelligence to evidence. There is even more of a difficulty when dealing with intelligence from the spies who (despite several years of getting their heads around it now, since they started to get involved in serious crime matters in the mid-90s) still don't really understand evidence!

There are ways of dealing with the issue but they are not ideal and they still sometimes make criminal proceedings impossible. This is an (I am sure) unintended consequence of a whole raft of legislation meant (with the best of possible intentions) to protect the interests of defendants.

 

[detective-boy]

What issues need understanding?

The operational dificulties facing officers in possession of credible information which has been tested as far as possible and still appears to be reliable. Shahid Malik MP has just been on Channel 4 News accepting this point and then going on to raise the other valid points you make.

I do not challenge the fact that operations going wrong like this (and it would have gone "wrong" whether or not the information was correct, it is never a "right" outcome if someone gets shot) have an adverse impact on the community.

I quite agree that the police need to provide explanations and apologies far more than they do. I have posted to that effect a number of times.

I quite agree that the police should be held accountable and that though there is a thorough system for doing so it could be improved. Again as I have posted previously.

But you do your arguments no favours at all by simplistically characterising everything the police do as a "fuck up" and ignoring everything else.

 

[TeeJay]

...Then you have to look at who the police officer elite actually are . Are they hardened detectives with years of street time and contacts with the community ? Or are they degree burdened fast track officers with less time in the job of a real detective than necessary to be a ' good tec ' and more prone to budget keeping and report writing than thief taking...

We just need to wangle you a sabbatical year or two at Oxford.

 

[lostexpectation]

we'll bitch till we get an explaination

 

[Stobart Stopper]

We just need to wangle you a sabbatical year or two at Oxford.

I don't think the student bar would be too happy!

That's not a bad idea though, I could get rid of the fat fuck for a year or so and I could go shopping at Lakeside every day, innit?

 

[TAE]

The police were told that there was an imminent threat of an atrocity. We don't know where that claim came from, but the police insist it was credible. I guess that is because it came from someone who appeared to be in a position to know about the alleged plot.

Well on C4 someone said that there was "the possibility of" an imminent threat.

And to be honest, at the moment we only know what the police are telling us.

I'd rather the police mounted some fruitless raids than that they risked allowing another atrocity.

If nobody is hurt, I would agree with you.

 

[zArk]

oh yeah, just as long as they dont shoot anyone let 'em kick a door or two in. I mean whats wrong with that?
Citizens must learn that the police know best

sarcasm b4 anyone says anything

 

[detective-boy]

And to be honest, at the moment we only know what the police are telling us.

Which, unless you run your own inteligence agency, will always been the case.

Whilst much intelligence has to remain confidential for operational and legal reasons, I think there could be more thought to the provision of information after the event. The "narrative" about events of 7 July was pathetic. I am sure that there is much else which could properly be released without prejudicing anything.

 

[TAE]

oh yeah, just as long as they dont shoot anyone let 'em kick a door or two in. I mean whats wrong with that?
Citizens must learn that the police know best

It seems the police pistol wipped one of the neighbours - they showed his head wound (with stitches) on C4 News this evening.

Not my idea of nobody getting hurt.



On the other hand, the occasional search of a house - with respect and dignity towards the occupants - when there is a real and concrete reason to believe something is going on there which could kill hundreds of people, I don't have a problem with that.

Though I do think the authorities should pay for any damage they cause if it turns out that they got it wrong.

 

[detective-boy]

Though I do think the authorities should pay for any damage they cause if it turns out that they got it wrong.

Damage is usually paid for (albeit the process is endlessly bureaucratic).

What there isn't (and I believe there should be) is any ex gratia payment to acknowledge that they have effectively been troubled in the interests of society as a whole.

And what there rarely is (due to "legal advice" which, to be honest, is bollocks) any timely apology because that would "amount to an admission of liability" (the same basis as your car insurers telling you never to admit anything after an accident no matter how bleeding obvious it is it is down to you).

 

[laptop]

Though I do think the authorities should pay for any damage they cause if it turns out that they got it wrong.

Aye - and it need to be possible for damage and intrusion to be compensated early.

Jean Charles' siblings may get some compensation - but I rather doubt his mum and dad will live long enough

This means taking on the lawyers at the Yard, who I assume are like lawyers everywhere scared shitless of admitting liability.

There needs to be a plain English (or plain Portuguese or Bangla...) statement that says something very much like: "Something very bad has happened. This money will not make it better, but it will make it easier to deal with the effects. By giving you this money we are not saying it was our fault and we are not saying it was not our fault. By accepting this money you do not give up any rights. You can sue us for more if you need to."

 

[Azrael23]

200 police officers at the scene. Lots of photos of tents and tape and things looking serious. Shots fired. Big headlines about primed anthrax bombs. People shot. Pistolwhipped.

Big bloody psy-op, reminding us what we have to be afraid of. If something happens tomorrow its the perfect run-up.

I hope thats not shown to be true.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

200 police officers at the scene. Lots of photos of tents and tape and things looking serious. Shots fired. Big headlines about primed anthrax bombs. People shot. Pistolwhipped.

Big bloody psy-op, reminding us what we have to be afraid of. If something happens tomorrow its the perfect run-up.

I hope thats not shown to be true.

One person shot, one person (possibly/probably) pistol whiped.

Then again factual accuracy is not your strong point is it?

 

[JHE]

Big bloody psy-op, reminding us what we have to be afraid of. If something happens tomorrow its the perfect run-up.

The pixies organised it all.

 

[TeeJay]

Then again factual accuracy is not your strong point is it?

Don't quote the moonfruit. I have it on ignore and I am hoping it will go away.

 

[Jessiedog]

I'd rather the police mounted some fruitless raids than that they risked allowing another atrocity.

All well and good, until it's your front door coming off the hinges, your kids being terrorised and YOU getting shot.

Then, I'd imagine, you would be a little less blase about it.



Woof

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Damage is usually paid for (albeit the process is endlessly bureaucratic).

The trouble is, no one is going to forget it. It appears that they are innocent, as they have found absolutely nothing. My guess is that it was a malicious tip off.
So, they have to go back home to Forest Gate and try to return to their llives. It doesn't matter about broken doors etc, mud sticks. People will always associate them with the terrorism raid.

If I was them I would sue for alot of money.

 

[zArk]

The pixies organised it all.

I think instead of pointing the finger at the police (who are the media whipping boys at the moment) why dont the media pose questions towards the intelligence services?
The lads might actually be innocent, like many others arrested through the Terrorism Act, but thats not the polices fault. They react and are forced to act through laws and policies. They are not ultimately responsible.
So who are the people going to sue?
Police-- it'll be slapped out of court
The intelligence agencies? -- good luck as, Detective Boy said 'ongoing investigation' means they can refuse to produce any evidence or answer questions.

So in blame society, the police will be finger pointed. Then the case dismissed, then people screaming for police heads to roll, media circus, blah blah blah

 

[DarthSydodyas]

I think instead of pointing the finger at the police (who are the media whipping boys at the moment) why dont the media pose questions towards the intelligence services?

I'd say the police were saying the same thing - at least the bloke (rank/position escapes me) who said on the day of the raid that this was effectively a test on the intelligence gathered.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Anyone hear a news about the police admitting this was a mistake or that there was nothing suspect at either house?

 

[Crazy_diamond]

Well it looks like Jean Charles all over again

If we go back and look at what has been said by the police we find “they were acting on intelligence that they had to prove or disprove”, we find senior police officers telling the press “we have had months of surveillance on this property”.

Now both those statement came from the police on day 1, my question is: if they have had this house and these people under surveillance for 3 months what did they see in that time that made them decide to raid the house in the middle of the night and not just arrest these people in the street and then search the house?

We now hear “maybe the protective gloves warn by the marksman caused the problem” but don’t the police train in full protective gear? Wouldn’t this problem have come up in training?

detective-boy: you know about these things? Isn’t it strange that if they had these guys under surveillance for months that they let them back into a house that they believe a bomb or some other device was thought to be kept? If they believed there was such a device why were they not arrested outside the property?

For me if this device was such that the police needed 200 officers o raid the house why did they let these people into the house where they could have detonated this device, surely to arrest them outside the house and therefore away from any such device would have been far safer?

 

[cemertyone]

Neither the police can, or will, release more detailed facts whilst charges are being considered as to do so may prejudice any trial. It's called sub jedice. It's an ancient facet of law in the UK.

Is that so??? well the same "sub-justice" that you allued to did not stop them from doing exactly just that in the case of Jean Mendies did it..the met and its officers were falling over themselves to present a picture that we now know was full of lies and bullshit.
The house of the subjects has literally been pulled apart and the usual " sources" have indicated that they found nothing more dangerous than an ASPRIN.
Your belief in the righteousness of the police is touching....

 

[Crazy_diamond]

The trouble is, no one is going to forget it. It appears that they are innocent, as they have found absolutely nothing. My guess is that it was a malicious tip off.
So, they have to go back home to Forest Gate and try to return to their llives. It doesn't matter about broken doors etc, mud sticks. People will always associate them with the terrorism raid.

If I was them I would sue for alot of money.

So you think maybe a little money will make them feel better? I had a flat wrongly raided back in the 1980, it was a ground floor flat and had 5 windows and one door, the police kicked in the door and had other police at each set of windows, the only people in the flat were my wife my children and me.

My wife in just pants and bra was marched into the kitchen and made to stand there in her knickers and bra with more than 12 male police officers walking around, the children (both under 5 and very scared) were kept in their rooms until the police had finished searching the living room and them were moved there while their bedrooms were searched.

I was handcuffed and marched around the flat by police asking me silly question like what is that and pointing at an Amstrad word processor, what is that pointing at a watch?

My wife is still suffering from this over 20 years later it was the first real face to face dealing she had ever had with the police and has not be able to trust them since this incident over 20 years age.

Just think how you’d feel age 22 with 2 young children and the police raid your house, smash the door down and drag you out of bed and make you stand in your underwear in a cold kitchen with loads of men standing around, your husband is handcuffed and taken away and you still have no idea what is happening; it is only when your husband is released 19 hours later that you discover that the people the police were looking for moved out of the flat over 3 year before you moved in.

 

[Jonti]

Just suppose, just imagine (it seems to be the case) that the Met was given the alarming information by Government sources. Suppose the Government sources and evaluation processes had rated the information as "credible and detailed information from a trusted ally". We know already know how the warmongering mad Tony and his craven cronies like to play fast and loose with intelligence assessments. Well, we do, don't we? So none of that is a stretch, even if the "lead" was tortured out of some poor sod somewhere in Algeria or wherever.

The Met can't question that. They have to act, no matter how fantastic and silly the scare might be. True, they could have acted differently. But that must be difficult, very difficult indeed, given that the framework inside which the police are obliged to act has been compromised by the warmongers.

 

[tarannau]

The suspects involved in the 21 July incident just wandered into police stations and give themselves up did they?

There have been dozens of operations aimed at identified terrorist threats. A number of trials have taken place. Others are ongoing. Others are still to be held. Just because the news isn't spoon-fed to ignorant, bigoted twats like you doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Nice, good to see you impartial and uninvolved, not at all hot headed or prone to spouting off a load of abuse. Sure you're not still in the force?

FWIW on the subject of 'ignorant' and 'bigoted', my gut feeling is that the numpty officers who shot an unarmed Brazilian man wearing a thin jacket repeatedly, somehow perceiving and reporting him to be a middle-Eastern gentlemen with a padded, possible bomb-rigged puffa are guilty of far more harmful preconceptions and general ignorance than I'm ever capable of.

Perhaps those officers could do with being 'spoon fed' some common sense and proper rules of engagement. Are you honestly claiming that the De Menezes operation wasn't a shambles in terms or organisation and execution?

 

[tarannau]

Not from the police there isn't. Provide a link to any police press release suggesting that Jean Charles de Menezes in any way "deserved it". Provide a link to any police press release suggesting in any way that the victim of this shooting in any way "deserved it". You won't be able to because it hasn't happened. Do not confuse what (some parts of) the media do with what the police do.

And you have noticed the IPCC enquiries into the events at Stockwell and Forest Gate have you? They are the first aspect of the police "taking responsibility" for what they have done.

Is that so??? well the same "sub-justice" that you allued to did not stop them from doing exactly just that in the case of Jean Mendies did it..the met and its officers were falling over themselves to present a picture that we now know was full of lies and bullshit.
The house of the subjects has literally been pulled apart and the usual " sources" have indicated that they found nothing more dangerous than an ASPRIN.
Your belief in the righteousness of the police is touching....

So you going to deny the essential truth of what Cemertyone suggests then DB - that DeMenezes name wasn't smeared 'off the record' by a number of offficers? They hardly fell over themselves to correct any misconceptions or suspiciously convenient reported inaccuracies did they? Hell, if I remember rightly, that prat Blair (Ian) even piped up to suggest they had the right man, when he would have been far better advised not to give misleading statements to the press.

Suggesting that the police only effectively communicate through press releases is a sneak's trick, an wheedling apologist's way out of taking any responsibility for the smears which undoubtedly happened. I'm actually quite embarrassed that you want to hide behind such nonsense.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

I still don't see why they couldn't have done something like arrested the blokes while they were either at work or on their way to work, then got a search warrant for the house.

 

[spring-peeper]

I still don't see why they couldn't have done something like arrested the blokes while they were either at work or on their way to work, then got a search warrant for the house.

Because it's more fun to bust down a door and go in with guns blazing? If they had been right, it would have looked cool on the news.

Sometimes, I think that it's more important to look good on the news than to catch the terrorists.

(I'm projecting because I'm still not too impressed with some of Canada's anti-terrorism activities, sorry.)