Police shoot man in forest gate

[laptop]

Just suppose, just imagine (it seems to be the case) that the Met was given the alarming information by Government sources.

Off-the-record briefing and counter-briefing continues apace:

Why were police at the house?

Senior officers have said they received "credible" intelligence suggesting a chemical-based explosive device was at the house.

Who produced the intelligence?

Primarily, MI5, the security service, which has a prime role in countering terrorism and works closely with Scotland Yard. It is understood to have come from a human source.

Telegraph

it emerged that the man who had passed the specific information that led to the raid in which a man was shot last Friday was a police informant who had been providing intelligence about the activities of alleged Islamist militants for several weeks.

This was despite previous reports quoting police sources that suggested the informant was being handled by the security service, MI5. It was the police who passed the information from the informant to MI5 officers to assess it, the Guardian understands.

Guardian

"It was themmuns!"

Government involvement would be quite extraordinary. Especially since a major concern for both the Met and MI5 is campaigning at the government for more funds.

The simplest explanation, however, remains: "source said something really scary, followed by major fuckup".

E2A:

a rift deepened between police and MI5 over how intelligence reports were handled. Security service sources are openly questioning police tactics and claiming they were far more involved in intelligence-gathering than they have admitted.

Mail

 

[TeeJay]

...FWIW on the subject of 'ignorant' and 'bigoted', my gut feeling is that the numpty officers who shot an unarmed Brazilian man wearing a thin jacket repeatedly, somehow perceiving and reporting him to be a middle-Eastern gentlemen with a padded, possible bomb-rigged puffa are guilty of far more harmful preconceptions and general ignorance than I'm ever capable of...

I was unaware that the actual police officers who shot him made any such statements to anyone. Maybe you are confusing statements by various other "witnesses" made to the media shortly afterwards or statements put out by the Met?

 

[TeeJay]

The simplest explanation, however, remains: "source said something really scary, followed by major fuckup".

Apart from someone getting shot - and we still don't know how or why this happened - what exactly is the "major fuckup"? The raid itself was not a "fuckup" - it was the right thing to do, even tho' so far it seems to have turned out negative...

 

[laptop]

Apart from someone getting shot ... what exactly is the "major fuckup"?

This is parody, yes?

 

[zArk]

Apart from someone getting shot - and we still don't know how or why this happened - what exactly is the "major fuckup"? The raid itself was not a "fuckup" - it was the right thing to do, even tho' so far it seems to have turned out negative...

I think a society that has to legalise raiding someones house is fucked from the start. Everything that follows is a downward spiral into oblivion for liberty, right of privacy and the old addage "an englishmans home is his castle.... that is liable to occassional raids by the landowner who likes you to think that you have any rights"

 

[Azrael23]

One person shot, one person (possibly/probably) pistol whiped.

Then again factual accuracy is not your strong point is it?

Which is exavtly what I said. Reading is not your strong point is it?

 

[Jonti]

The simplest explanation, however, remains: "source said something really scary, followed by major fuckup"

Panicky police make me feel downright nervous. I am quite capable of doing *all* the panicking that's needed, all by myself As the saying goes, “I don’t know about the enemy — but they sure scare the hell out of me.”

I remain immensely curious about the source. Far too much over-fantastic detail, for my liking. I cannot rid my mind of the picture of some poor sod being half drowned to death, desperately wracking his mind for some names he can put to a sufficiently hot story to make the torture stop. For a while.

 

[TeeJay]

This is parody, yes?

The "getting shot" bit doesn't relate to the intelligence or the decision to do the raid.

Maybe you'd like to clarify what "the major fuck" up was in your eyes:

1) The flawed intelligence
2) The decision to do the raid
3) A gun going off

IMO there are not enough details about any of these to be able to say that anyone "fucked up". Maybe everything was done by the book in the correct manner and all the decisions made were the correct ones in the circumstances and given the available information. We don't know enough about how the person got shot and what was going on inside the house at the time so to say that it was a "major fuck up" is premature.

 

[TAE]

We now hear “maybe the protective gloves warn by the marksman caused the problem” but don’t the police train in full protective gear? Wouldn’t this problem have come up in training?

Yeah I'd also like to have that answered.

 

[Yossarian]

So they went storming in there on the basis of crappy intelligence, failed to find any weapons of mass destruction, and are now busy trying to cover their arses? I've got deja vu!

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Now there's a piece on the front of the Evening Standard about how the gloves the cop was wearing might have been too thick and the gun accidentally went off. First we had the story the other day that one brother shot the other and now this.

 

[TeeJay]

...I cannot rid my mind of the picture of some poor sod being half drowned to death, desperately wracking his mind for some names he can put to a sufficiently hot story to make the torture stop. For a while...

Professional done interrogation typically asks people hundreds of questions over and over again, wears people down psychologically, makes them tired (sleep deprivation) and disorientated, plays various emotional and psychological games or tricks and seeks to find consistencies and inconsistencies rather than names blurted out to end pain or avoid death (which would be completely unreliable for exactly the reason that you give above - ie people will invent anything on the spur of the moment).

Police investigators use techniques like this when interviewing suspects and the military use them on their own soldiers when training them for "action on capture". Its amazing how many people will blurt out loads of stuff when they haven't had enough sleep or they are disorientated - even when this will mean they fail a course they have been slogging their guts out to pass for months. I'd expect that there are also 'Darren Brown' type people who will use psychological tricks to get people to talk. Ironically beating people up (eg soldiers etc) can actually make them less likely to talk and more resistant - although this probably depends on the individual - because this gives them a focus to fight against and generates emtoions that can sustain them. Getting people to start talking can be far more subtle and sneaky.

 

[Jonti]

The "getting shot" bit doesn't relate to the intelligence or the decision to do the raid.

I'd have thought those circumstances have been clearly established as prerequisites for the shooting. I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say.

 

[Barking_Mad]

The US Army and the FBI have both said in their training manuals that torture is a waste of time.

"Repetitive use of legitimate force" is my 'favourite' US govt. piece of doublespeak for torture and how one detainee died.

 

[TeeJay]

Now there's a piece on the front of the Evening Standard about how the gloves the cop was wearing might have been too thick and the gun accidentally went off. First we had the story the other day that one brother shot the other and now this.

If the armed police where wearing full chemical weapons protective clothing because they thought there was a real risk that the suspects would set off any device if raided then this might be believable.

I know soldiers do train for combat wearing gas masks and NBC (nuclear biological chemical) suits - I wonder if SO19 have been doing so for as long?

 

[laptop]

Professional done interrogation

But we have lots of leaks referring to a "source" in a way that implies a walk-in.

As for the rest... you appear to be arguing with something I've not said.

 

[TeeJay]

I'd have thought those circumstances have been clearly established as prerequisites for the shooting. I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say.

The victim being born was a "prerequisite" if you want to take it to extremes. I am simply asking laptop what exactly the "major fuckup" was? I don't think we can yet say that there was a "major fuckup". There seems to have been a lot of 'gossip' flying around so I'd prefer to wait and see...

 

[TeeJay]

But we have lots of leaks referring to a "source" in a way that implies a walk-in.

I know - I was responding to the comments about torture and intelligence from Algeria etc. I am not implying that I think the intelligence in this case came from torture or overseas - just making a general point about torture etc.

 

[TeeJay]

As for the rest... you appear to be arguing with something I've not said.

I'll quote:

The simplest explanation, however, remains: "source said something really scary, followed by major fuckup".

I am asking you what this "major fuckup" was exactly.

 

[Crazy_diamond]

Apart from someone getting shot - and we still don't know how or why this happened - what exactly is the "major fuckup"? The raid itself was not a "fuckup" - it was the right thing to do, even tho' so far it seems to have turned out negative...

Why was it the right thing to do? How do you know that it was the right thing to do?

The police said from the outset "we are acting on intelligence and this address has been under surveillance for months", if that is the case and they have been watching for months what changed? why did they decide now was the time to go in?

We will not get answers to these questions just like we have not had answers to the shooting of Jean Charles, I don't think it was by accident we got in the papers this weekend stories about how these guys use to be bad boys but they found religion and are now regular attendees at the local Mosque, has the same ring to it as the stories about Jean Charles and his visa status, just the right sort of thing to say to get many Brits thinking “well there is no smoke without fire”.

This is just the same shit different Race that’s all, I think it will be very interesting to see the press reaction when some middle class Brit gets shot in a raid like this!

 

[Jonti]

The victim being born was a "prerequisite" if you want to take it to extremes. I am simply asking laptop what exactly the "major fuckup" was? I don't think we can yet say that there was a "major fuckup". There seems to have been a lot of 'gossip' flying around so I'd prefer to wait and see...

Do you know that you're being silly?

I understand you waited to see almost longer than anyone about the "major fuckup" that was WMD in Iraq. Why should anyone take you seriously now?

To spell it out for you, there is very little indication this raid achieved its objectives, and quite a lot of indications it did not. Worse, it seems it has complicated the delicate and important business of a free people trusting their own police to preserve the peace and uphold their freedoms.

 

[Jonti]

But we have lots of leaks referring to a "source" in a way that implies a walk-in.

Yes, we do.

But don't miss this from Ben Russell in Monday's Independent on page two ...

There were suggestions yesterday that the intelligence indicating that a chemical device was being prepared may have come from the US.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

If the armed police where wearing full chemical weapons protective clothing because they thought there was a real risk that the suspects would set off any device if raided then this might be believable.

I know soldiers do train for combat wearing gas masks and NBC (nuclear biological chemical) suits - I wonder if SO19 have been doing so for as long?

OK, but what I want to know is who put out the story that one brother accidentally shot the other.

 

[TeeJay]

I understand you waited to see almost longer than anyone about the "major fuckup" that was WMD in Iraq. Why should anyone take you seriously now?

I don't think that invading Iraq was a fuck up (as opposed to the way things were managed after the invasion).

Why should I take you seriously?

To spell it out for you, there is very little indication this raid achieved its objectives, and quite a lot of indications it did not. Worse, it seems it has complicated the delicate and important business of a free people trusting their own police to preserve the peace and uphold their freedoms.

The raid *did* achieve its objectives - ie following up a suspected terrorist operation.

What do you think about these reports about Abdul Kahar:

"He is very anti-terrorism. He is very keen on police pursuing their inquiries, but obviously he is not happy that they have focused on him ... He is not very happy at being in custody, but understands that the police have a job to do."

You think there was a 'fuckup' - what *exactly* was this fuckup, in your view?

 

[TeeJay]

OK, but what I want to know is who put out the story that one brother accidentally shot the other.

Maybe a journalist made it up?

 

[detective-boy]

This means taking on the lawyers at the Yard, who I assume are like lawyers everywhere scared shitless of admitting liability.

Worse ...

Plus you get all the organisational inertia involved in getting someone - anyone - to make a fucking decision.

 

[zArk]

Worse ...

Plus you get all the organisational inertia involved in getting someone - anyone - to make a fucking decision.

wow, its as if the system is outta control and no-one wants to admit it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I don't think that invading Iraq was a fuck up (as opposed to the way things were managed after the invasion).

Would you give a bunch of crooks the key to your house?

 

[Barking_Mad]

This is just the same shit different Race that’s all, I think it will be very interesting to see the press reaction when some middle class Brit gets shot in a raid like this!

Oh im sure there will be an outcry then alright. "It was ok to shoot Asians and Brazilians, but white van man?"

 

[TeeJay]

Would you give a bunch of crooks the key to your house?

What's that got to do with anything?