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Police shoot man in forest gate

Crazy_diamond said:
Stephen Waldorf: that's the bloke, but my point is that there have been many incidents like this over the years but only very few will change anything and that is my point, nothing change when the police shot that black lady in Brixton when she was in bed Jarrat I think her name was and there are many cases like that but it is only when a "respectable" white person get shot that the system is changed.


Her name was Cherry Groce. Her son's a good geezer that I've known for years, someone's who's made the best of himself after a truly harsh series of events.

The trouble is, things don't really seem to have changed that much for the better since her death, depsite all the assurances. The trouble with the unapologetic 'got to break a few eggs to make an omelette' reasoning is that real people and communities are involved. The Brixton Riots were over events just like this, immediately so in the case of Cherry Groce. It takes years for the police to regain the trust of a community.
 
tarannau said:
Her name was Cherry Groce. Her son's a good geezer that I've known for years, someone's who's made the best of himself after a truly harsh series of events.

The trouble is, things don't really seem to have changed that much for the better since her death, depsite all the assurances. The trouble with the unapologetic 'got to break a few eggs to make an omelette' reasoning is that real people and communities are involved. The Brixton Riots were over events just like this, immediately so in the case of Cherry Groce. It takes years for the police to regain the trust of a community.
I think I've met her Son a couple of times also, isn't his name Michael and he reads and writes poetry, I think last time we spoke was a a benefit gig at the Albert sometime last year?

I was thinking of someone Cynthia Jarrat (wrong spelling I'm sure) but I think I maybe mixing up two different shooting, when you look on the web there seems to be loads
 
Bob_the_lost said:
How? To do that you'd give warning to the suspects, if they did have a chemical weapon or bomb ready to go then it'd be increasing the risk to the public.

Who ever said they didn't? Serriously, link please.

Eh? You've just been told why they were arrested at home. You will never get information about intelegence sources.

The police couldn't have evacuated people ahead of time, the risk of a phone call or someone in the target house noticing would be massive. In fact if they did have a chemical weapon it'd be more risky to do it that way than a raid. They had 250 officers in the area, say 30 for the raid, 30 for the cordons at the ends of the roads and the rest either C&C or to evacuate if nessisary.
Thank you for your speculation but I was addressing my questions to detective-boy who I know has factual information about police procedure :).

I got my information from BBC radio London so if you want links I suggest you start there.
 
TeeJay said:
But police do use a more subtle and psychological approach don't they - for example trying to pick up when people are lying or contradicting themselves? Don't they try and get people talking, give them open ended questions and take different tacks rather than take an approach of simply asking a yes/no question or being completely hostile and aggressive?
Yes. It is called the PEACE investigative interviewing technique. I am not sure whether you are suggesting that using this would be wrong. If so, why?
 
lostexpectation said:
that I don't get, like even if there not directly involved in whatever wasn't happening it a surpirse that they'd be let out of the country,
If there was no indication that they were involved in any way, what power would exist to stop them? Contrary to the bollocks posted by some on here, we are not living in a police state where the police have the power to do whatever they like.
 
Crazy_diamond said:
If as the police have stated “they used the number of officers that they believed the threat demanded”, why didn’t they have a strategy to evacuate local people if a device was found?
Maybe, just maybe, thats what most of the 250 officers were actually involved FOR ... :rolleyes:
 
Crazy_diamond said:
Having been a serving policeman can you think of circumstances where the facts currently I the public domain would have warranted such a response with no forward planning to evacuate local residents, I understand that evidentially it is far better for the police to arrest these people while they were in the house, but again the perceived threat seems to have been extremely high (hence the number of officers and agencies involved) so public safety should have taken priority, did it in this case or was arresting and showing the public that the police are working take control?
I have posted on this repeatedly. There are pluses and minuses with any tactic. Once intervention is decided you base a risk assessment on what you KNOW, what you SUSPECT or BELIEVE and all the "WHAT IF ..." situations you can think of.

IF you believe there is a bomb in the house, you don't want them to have a chance to set it off. Unless you can be sure there is no-one else at the house, arrests away from the premises would not resolve your problem. If you evacuate everyone, you risk the suspects becoming aware and detonating it anyway. If you do a rapid intervention you surprise may be enough to prevent detonation.

IF you believe there is bomb-making going on similar issues arise, but the downside of a rapid intervention is less.

It is not just evidential issues which make it preferable to get them in the house, there are risks to unknown potential victims in the future to consider if you intervene too sioon, get no evidence and have to release the suspects who whilst legally innocent may well still be terrorists in reality.

Whatever the situation you face, having weighed everything up you choose the best (or, I suspect, the least worst) tactic available based on what you know. That is what they will have done.

Having seen the operation I suspect they believed that bomb-making was going on there (rather than an actual device primed and ready to go) and that the possibility of a primed and ready to go device was one of the "What if ..." situations considered which resulted in lots of the 250 being available for a rapid evacuation is needed.
 
Crazy_diamond said:
I was thinking of someone Cynthia Jarrat (wrong spelling I'm sure) but I think I maybe mixing up two different shooting, when you look on the web there seems to be loads
No. You were imagining one. Cynthia Jarrett was a lady who collapsed and died of a heart attack during a police search of her house in Tottenham. It was just prior to the Broadwater Farm riots.

If you are going to use these sorts of tragic circumstances to bolster your argument the least you could do is get the facts right.
 
detective-boy said:
Maybe, just maybe, thats what most of the 250 officers were actually involved FOR ... :rolleyes:
:p

I thought they took 250 because they were prepared to shoot people dead and didn't want a riot so they used overwhelming force to a military degree. It ups the stakes a bit though, surely, with any locals feeling antagonised?
 
DexterTCN said:
I thought they took 250 because they were prepared to shoot people dead and didn't want a riot so they used overwhelming force to a military degree. It ups the stakes a bit though, surely, with any locals feeling antagonised?
Oh, right! That would explain all the local people queueing up to tell the media how there were hundreds of police officers, in riot gear, forcing people out of the streets, bating passers-by, forcing them away from the area, securing important buildings / junctions ....

... or maybe not.
 
DexterTCN said:
Anyone can make up a worse situation. It's not helpful though.
And yet you did.

It's remarkably cheap in terms of manpower to slaughter people in droves. Once they are dead it's just a matter of picking up the bits and sticking them in bodybags. Moving living people is much harder. Doing it quickly at 4:30am is even worse.
 
detective-boy said:
I have posted on this repeatedly. There are pluses and minuses with any tactic. Once intervention is decided you base a risk assessment on what you KNOW, what you SUSPECT or BELIEVE and all the "WHAT IF ..." situations you can think of.

IF you believe there is a bomb in the house, you don't want them to have a chance to set it off. Unless you can be sure there is no-one else at the house, arrests away from the premises would not resolve your problem. If you evacuate everyone, you risk the suspects becoming aware and detonating it anyway. If you do a rapid intervention you surprise may be enough to prevent detonation.

IF you believe there is bomb-making going on similar issues arise, but the downside of a rapid intervention is less.

It is not just evidential issues which make it preferable to get them in the house, there are risks to unknown potential victims in the future to consider if you intervene too sioon, get no evidence and have to release the suspects who whilst legally innocent may well still be terrorists in reality.

Whatever the situation you face, having weighed everything up you choose the best (or, I suspect, the least worst) tactic available based on what you know. That is what they will have done.

Having seen the operation I suspect they believed that bomb-making was going on there (rather than an actual device primed and ready to go) and that the possibility of a primed and ready to go device was one of the "What if ..." situations considered which resulted in lots of the 250 being available for a rapid evacuation is needed.
Thanks for your response.

My point about “the people being arrested in the house is better for evidence reasons ” was a point I heard made just after the raid on the TV by a serving policeman, that is why I asked about that.

My major confusions about this are two fold, first if they had these people under surveillance for months (as stated by the police themselves and confirmed by local residents who have said “we saw them parked in the road everyday for a long time; we thought they were police because they had pens and papers on their dashboard”) and I’m sure in that time they would have seen any pattern in the suspects movements and that at some times the house was empty, again from what local people have said on the radio “they always attended Friday prayers” and stuff like that.

My 2nd confusion is that at a public meeting it was asked by a local resident “what plans did you have to evacuate local people before or after any device was found” and the meeting was told “there were no such plans” (all this from BBC radio London), that statement seems to me to indicate one of two things

The perceived threat didn’t warrant it or it was over looked, I can’t think of another reason, any ideas?

As I have said this looks like Jean Charles all over again and the polices lack of comment only adds to the publics suspicions, I understand that the police are very limited in what they can say IF charges are likely to be made, but all this say nothing (from the layers I’d suspect) isn’t doing the police any favours as the public see the police making statements on many cases when it suits them so all this we can’t comment sounds very false.

It’s a bit like the pictures on the TV news when a policeman is in Court and the news is reporting it, you see the policeman walking along the road to the Court in a suit and tie but when you see someone like Kenneth Noye going to Court it is a shot from a helicopter showing armed police on rooftops and a massive police escort for the prison van, very different pictures and a very different idea planted in the minds of the public.

I should say at this point I personally don’t believe if a policeman shot this guy they did it deliberately as if they had meant it I suspect the guy would have been shot dead as the police don’t have a shot to stop policy as their rules of engagement are such that it would have to be a life threatening situation for them to open fire so they shot to kill and I wouldn’t expect them to be trained any other way as it could be their life or mine at risk, but for that system to work and the public to have confidence in it there needs to be openness and full transparency which there wasn’t in the case of Jean Charles and seems to be the case again here, the difference in this case is there were a number of witnesses in the house so when they are released we will get the victims side this time and I am looking forward to studying the differences that appear.
 
detective-boy said:
No. You were imagining one. Cynthia Jarrett was a lady who collapsed and died of a heart attack during a police search of her house in Tottenham. It was just prior to the Broadwater Farm riots.

If you are going to use these sorts of tragic circumstances to bolster your argument the least you could do is get the facts right.
Well maybe if there were not so many of these incidents it wouldn’t be so confusing “posts tong in cheek smiley) ;)
 
Crazy_diamond said:
The perceived threat didn’t warrant it or it was over looked, I can’t think of another reason, any ideas?

... but for that system to work and the public to have confidence in it there needs to be openness and full transparency which there wasn’t in the case of Jean Charles and seems to be the case again here, the difference in this case is there were a number of witnesses in the house so when they are released we will get the victims side this time and I am looking forward to studying the differences that appear.
I don't think they had had them under surveillance for that much time to be honest. I wouldn't like to second guess what the actual intelligence and risk assessment was, but if it was me doing it, I don't think I'd have done it this way if I believed there actually was a bomb there, primed and ready to go. Evacuation would have been very near the top of my priorities in such a case, at least down to as close as I could get without risking being noticed by the suspect, or, at least, simultaneous with the rapid entry, working from next door outwards. As I said before, it looks like the information was preparation, with a potential primed bomb as a "What if ...".

I appreciate what you say about the difference between a charged police officer walking into Court and (eg) Kenneth Noye being in an armed convoy ... but (except in extremely unusual circumstances) the police officer, at worst, has made an error of judgement in trying to do their lawful job whilst (eg) Kenneth Noye has been involved in other serious crime (robbery, handlng stolen gold, whatever). Each case is treated on it's risk assessment and previous character, escape risk, associates capable of seeking to free, etc. are all taken into account. How the media then report it is a matter for them (though, I do agree, the police sometimes do milk it for all it's worth).

You cannot have openness and transparency AND accountability to the law simultaneously, at least not at the start of an investigation. If things are put into the public domain they risk prejudicing any trial. The accountability (which I think is most important) comes in the form of IPCC investigators asking what happened and why, gathering all the evidence and forming an opinion, as professional investigators, as to whether or not charges are justified. This is followed by a review of the evidence by (very senior, experienced) CPS lawyers and (usually) counsel. And, if they believe there is a case to answer, by a Court trial. There may also be internal disciplinary proceedings after that. And, in fatal cases, an inquest.

The whole process takes far too long, partially because of justifiable reasons (investigations simply do take ages to do thoroughly) and partially due to ineria and delays in the system (particularly in dealing with disciplinary matters). Thus "accountability" may go on literally for years (see the Harry Stanley case - the officers were still being asked to account for their actions five or more years later.

Only once accountability has been taken as far as it needs can openness and transparency take precedence. This should (in my opinion) take the form of a release of all possible evidence to the public domain. Sadly this is not standard practice and, when it does take place, it tends to be very "thin". The 7 July narrative is an example of what I mean by thin - it would have been possible to release a huge amount of actual evidence in support of the facts stated in the narrative - the facts are not secret, they are included, so why not release the supporting evidence so the public can know. An example of openness and transparency occured this week when Greater Manchester Police released CCTV footage of the Manchester bomb exploding - held back until now bcause it may be evidence in proceedings but now released because a review of the case has concluded there is "no realistic chance of a conviction".

Once
 
Police apologies sortof

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08062006/140/police-apologise-terror-raid.html

Police have apologised for the "disruption and inconvenience" caused by last week's anti-terror raids in east London. Assistant Commissioner Andy Hayman also appealed for calm ahead of a planned demonstration in Forest Gate, saying it was not the time for "conflict and anger". However, he insisted last Friday's raid in Lansdown Road, which involved close to 250 officers and led to a suspect being shot in the shoulder, was "necessary and proportionate".
 
detective-boy said:
I don't think they had had them under surveillance for that much time to be honest. I wouldn't like to second guess what the actual intelligence and risk assessment was, but if it was me doing it, I don't think I'd have done it this way if I believed there actually was a bomb there, primed and ready to go. Evacuation would have been very near the top of my priorities in such a case, at least down to as close as I could get without risking being noticed by the suspect, or, at least, simultaneous with the rapid entry, working from next door outwards. As I said before, it looks like the information was preparation, with a potential primed bomb as a "What if ...".

I appreciate what you say about the difference between a charged police officer walking into Court and (eg) Kenneth Noye being in an armed convoy ... but (except in extremely unusual circumstances) the police officer, at worst, has made an error of judgement in trying to do their lawful job whilst (eg) Kenneth Noye has been involved in other serious crime (robbery, handlng stolen gold, whatever). Each case is treated on it's risk assessment and previous character, escape risk, associates capable of seeking to free, etc. are all taken into account. How the media then report it is a matter for them (though, I do agree, the police sometimes do milk it for all it's worth).

You cannot have openness and transparency AND accountability to the law simultaneously, at least not at the start of an investigation. If things are put into the public domain they risk prejudicing any trial. The accountability (which I think is most important) comes in the form of IPCC investigators asking what happened and why, gathering all the evidence and forming an opinion, as professional investigators, as to whether or not charges are justified. This is followed by a review of the evidence by (very senior, experienced) CPS lawyers and (usually) counsel. And, if they believe there is a case to answer, by a Court trial. There may also be internal disciplinary proceedings after that. And, in fatal cases, an inquest.

The whole process takes far too long, partially because of justifiable reasons (investigations simply do take ages to do thoroughly) and partially due to ineria and delays in the system (particularly in dealing with disciplinary matters). Thus "accountability" may go on literally for years (see the Harry Stanley case - the officers were still being asked to account for their actions five or more years later.

Only once accountability has been taken as far as it needs can openness and transparency take precedence. This should (in my opinion) take the form of a release of all possible evidence to the public domain. Sadly this is not standard practice and, when it does take place, it tends to be very "thin". The 7 July narrative is an example of what I mean by thin - it would have been possible to release a huge amount of actual evidence in support of the facts stated in the narrative - the facts are not secret, they are included, so why not release the supporting evidence so the public can know. An example of openness and transparency occured this week when Greater Manchester Police released CCTV footage of the Manchester bomb exploding - held back until now bcause it may be evidence in proceedings but now released because a review of the case has concluded there is "no realistic chance of a conviction".

Once
Again thanks for taking the time to reply I can see from the board you are very busy with some threads at the moment. The part I have highlighted in bold is very important as it would appear from the thread that a number of posters believe you are trying to justify the actions of the police, to me it seems you are trying to explain them and there is a very big difference ;)

I also work in the security industry and have day to day contact with people from various parts of the security industry and I have yet to meet anyone who believes this was the correct way for the police to have acted “IF” the information currently in the public domain from official bodies is correct and I have spoken to a few to try and reverse engineer a situation where the tactics used would be correct and while it should be easy to do, when you look at it objectively it isn’t as many other options appear to be better.

But we are not privy to the “intelligence” (and I think we both understand what is meant by “intelligence” in this case) so it is only speculation based on experience.

I fully understand the pressure felt by a serving police officer in these circumstances when facing what is an “honestly held believed” that a real threat is present, is very different to any training programme however well devised.

But public confidence in the actions of the police is of such overriding importance in cases such as these that the whole system surrounding “information in the public domain” needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

A present we seem to be in a situation where statements are made by the police to the press prior to or at the time of such incidents that later don’t stand up to public scrutiny and that is where the door is left wide open for conspiracy theories, I also understand the pressure from and on the press to get information out to the public, but in the light of recent events this is clearly doing more harm than good.

So it would appear the police are dammed if they say anything and dammed if they don’t, I’m not sure that is the case but it appears to be and it shouldn’t.


Edited to say, I also find it hard to believe they had these people under surveillance for 3 months and acted in the way they did, but that is what was reported, I see that the police have said since “they were under surveillance for some time”, I’m sure we'll findout at some point.
 
Crazy_diamond said:
So it would appear the police are dammed if they say anything and dammed if they don’t, I’m not sure that is the case but it appears to be and it shouldn’t.
I cannot "justify" the actions of the police because I do not know what the intelligence was, nor do I know all the other factors which would go into a risk assessment. All I can do is try and explain the process and, where necessary, try to illustrate it with hypothetical examples.

I would be wary of relying too much on the experience of security industry professionals. Whilst there are areas of overlap between the industry and policing, there are not many occasions when the security industry would contemplate a rapid entry or face a situation in having to enter a building / arrest suspects who may be armed and dangerous. I know. I have worked in both.

You are right about the need to maintain public confidence. The police DO know that. They use consultative groups, advisors and community contacts far more than they did, certainly in relation to "mainstream" crime. A "Community Impact Assessment" forms part of all operational planning.

I suspect that there is still some reluctance to use these measures in relation to terrorism matters - some of this can probably be justified but some of it is probably unfounded. I think they could probably do better. If there had been a thorough Community Impact Assessment and associated strategy, I would have expected comments such as those made by AC Hayman to have been made within hours, not days, probably fronted through a local senior officer working closely with community contacts for who a briefing was held after the event even if a pre-event briefing was not considered possible (as it may well not have been for obvious security reasons). Hopefully this incident will inform that learning.

To a certain extent, yes, the polce are damned if they do (as here), damned if they don't (as in the case of Khan (7 July bomber)). It may not be right but it's just the way the world is.
 
what a good thread....and great insight into the operational matters of the old bill...often i have not seen things through thier end of the prism...thank you D.B.
mind you i still dont like them or the role they fufill for their political masters....
 
The commentary around this incident is really starting to get on my tits. For example, the obsession everyone seems to have with 250 officers being used. Clearly those involved have never planned a police operation. Physical cordons at either end of the street, 20 officers at least before we start, enough officers to ensure that the the occupants of the forty odd houses in the street don't come out and get involved, well you can add another forty or so. CBRN officers, hard to know how many required but you'll have to rotate them, firearms teams, back up, exhibits officers, reserves in case of public disorder, photographs, press liason, supervisors, SO13, arrest and escort teams, say four per possible subject, EXPO, charge centre reception, doesn't take long to mount up.
 
pdxm said:
The commentary around this incident is really starting to get on my tits. For example, the obsession everyone seems to have with 250 officers being used. Clearly those involved have never planned a police operation. Physical cordons at either end of the street, 20 officers at least before we start, enough officers to ensure that the the occupants of the forty odd houses in the street don't come out and get involved, well you can add another forty or so. CBRN officers, hard to know how many required but you'll have to rotate them, firearms teams, back up, exhibits officers, reserves in case of public disorder, photographs, press liason, supervisors, SO13, arrest and escort teams, say four per possible subject, EXPO, charge centre reception, doesn't take long to mount up.


police are well known for bringing up more personal then they need just for the image are they not?
 
pdxm said:
The commentary around this incident is really starting to get on my tits. For example, the obsession everyone seems to have with 250 officers being used. Clearly those involved have never planned a police operation. Physical cordons at either end of the street, 20 officers at least before we start, enough officers to ensure that the the occupants of the forty odd houses in the street don't come out and get involved, well you can add another forty or so. CBRN officers, hard to know how many required but you'll have to rotate them, firearms teams, back up, exhibits officers, reserves in case of public disorder, photographs, press liason, supervisors, SO13, arrest and escort teams, say four per possible subject, EXPO, charge centre reception, doesn't take long to mount up.
I’m glad you shared that with us :)

It is getting on your tits so much that you decided to tell us about it, I hope you have now got it off your chest (pun intended) ;)
 
lostexpectation said:
police are well known for bringing up more personal then they need just for the image are they not?

What image? Have you seen any images of the raid? When you plan an operation you have to plan for all foreseebale eventualities, therefore you might consider having some PSU (police support units) in reserve. They might never get used but you need the capacity. These officers still get quoted in the headline figure. Think about just how many people might be needed to secure an address in the middle of an urban area, where you believe a device might be. It's not simply a "You go round the back George, yes Guv, situation".
 
pdxm said:
What image? Have you seen any images of the raid? When you plan an operation you have to plan for all foreseebale eventualities, therefore you might consider having some PSU (police support units) in reserve. They might never get used but you need the capacity. These officers still get quoted in the headline figure. Think about just how many people might be needed to secure an address in the middle of an urban area, where you believe a device might be. It's not simply a "You go round the back George, yes Guv, situation".


the more people the more correct they were?
 
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