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Police shoot man in forest gate

TAE said:
So, compensation on its way?

I can see a niche industry opening up here;

"Have you been shot by state sanctioned sociopaths, had your front door twatted of its hinges at 6am for no good reason, then call twats direct on 0845 270270 and let us handle your claim, we recover our costs from the 'police fuckwits contingency fund' so theres no risk, apart from tabloid outrage that a darkie has the nerve to be annoyed about being shot in his own house.

Remeber, where theres a twat in a met hat, theres compo to be had."

I can see it now.
 
LOL.

In this case I'm really not convinced it was the police who messed up - apart from the shooting of course.
Who told them that there was an absolute need to act?
 
TAE said:
LOL.

In this case I'm really not convinced it was the police who messed up - apart from the shooting of course.
Who told them that there was an absolute need to act?

Has it not now emerged that in actual fact it was the Met who went to the security services with the information and not ( as many would assume) the other way around. That would lead me to think that the S.B. have been running this informant. ( he`s probably been caught either in low level forms of criminality or been involved insomething that`s comprimised him and they have "turned" him).
After listening to former commander John Grieve on BBC 24 this morning..he was schathing in his apprisal of the entireity of the operation from start to finish.But what particulary got his goat was that ( for the moment at least) it would appear that ONE SINGLE uncorrobarated source has resulted in.
1. An innocent man being shot.
2. a P.R. disaster for the Met in their relations with the muslim community
3. The total inability of the Met to admit ( ever) that they got it wrong that they are sorry they got it wrong and procedures will be reviewed in light of this fuck up.....
 
cemertyone said:
Has it not now emerged that in actual fact it was the Met who went to the security services with the information and not ( as many would assume) the other way around. That would lead me to think that the S.B. have been running this informant. ( he`s probably been caught either in low level forms of criminality or been involved insomething that`s comprimised him and they have "turned" him).
After listening to former commander John Grieve on BBC 24 this morning..he was schathing in his apprisal of the entireity of the operation from start to finish.But what particulary got his goat was that ( for the moment at least) it would appear that ONE SINGLE uncorrobarated source has resulted in.
1. An innocent man being shot.
2. a P.R. disaster for the Met in their relations with the muslim community
3. The total inability of the Met to admit ( ever) that they got it wrong that they are sorry they got it wrong and procedures will be reviewed in light of this fuck up.....
Maybe a cell-mate of the older brother ?

.
 
cemertyone said:
Has it not now emerged that in actual fact it was the Met who went to the security services with the information and not ( as many would assume) the other way around.
Really? When the police said they had "received intelligence" I thought that meant from the spooks.

Just one informant? I think our D.B. would be shocked about that too.
 
TAE said:
Really? When the police said they had "received intelligence" I thought that meant from the spooks.

Just one informant? I think our D.B. would be shocked about that too.


I`m totally confident that it was the Met who went to the security services with the initial information and from there things then developed. Will try and get my cuttings out and post up where i have seen this ( and its from more than one source..which is better than the Met seem to have done in this case.;).
None the less its not going to take long before both brothers piece together a chronological process of events that leads them back to the informant and i wouldn`t like to be in his/her shoes when they do. After being shot..your house systematically destroyed your family name in ruins i bet there not best pleased with the undoubtedly limited number of people who would have had access to either of them or what (if any) intentions they may have had.
 
cemertyone said:
After listening to former commander John Grieve on BBC 24 this morning..
I think you mean former Commander John O'Connor, John Greieve was a former DAC and he does not do commentary for the news media.

John O'Connor was a dinosaur before he left - and that was about ten or twelve years ago. You may have noted his remark at the end where he was talking about recruiting trained spies from Pakistan / India to infiltrate the muslim community (not, in itself a bad idea, I guess). He referred to the infiltration of "The extremist community" (i.e. all muslims are terrorists). The man is a twat.

There are only two ways of doing things - his way and the wrong way (that comment comes from a news presenter acquainted with him as a commentator, by the way).
 
TAE said:
Just one informant? I think our D.B. would be shocked about that too.
I am not shocked about it being single source. Much information is single source. If you are a good criminal / terrorist you are unlucky if a single person knows enough to inform on you, so single source is not particularly a problem on it's own. Whether the informant is SB, ordinary police or security services is largely irrelevant.

Normally (and I say normally) you would look to corroborate such information but, where the nature of the information is as we had here, I would suggest that is a luxury you don't have.

Imagine the outcry when a cyanide bomb was let off on the tube and it comes out that the police knew ... "But we only had a single source and we couldn't corroborate it so we though, "Oh well" and let it run ..."

As DAC Clark said on day 1, the operation was intended to prove or disprove the information.
 
Earlier, when someone suggested that "the intelligence" could simply be a tip-off from a disgruntled acquaintance, you seemed to suggest that the police would have "much more than that" before they mounted a raid like that.

edit - post #135, ok I misremembered slightly, but I still got the impression from your answer that a single source would not have been enough for the police. What does "It will be way, way more than that" mean then?
 
BBC News said:
A Scotland Yard spokesman said: [...] "We appreciate the police operation has caused inconvenience and disruption to the occupants of the house."
Getting shot and having your house taken apart is described as 'inconvenience and disruption' ? :rolleyes:
 
cemertyone said:
I`m totally confident that it was the Met who went to the security services with the initial information

As of this time yesterday, alll we could see from the public unattributed sources was that the Met and Five were briefing against each other: "it was <---their---> fault!"

Is there new information?

As for the motive of the "source": it would all make so much more sense if one brother were a market trader or someting like that - a grudge-holding métier...
 
TAE said:
... but I still got the impression from your answer that a single source would not have been enough for the police. What does "It will be way, way more than that" mean then?
What it meant was that there was not simply a phone call or something saying "Them blokes down Lansdowne Road are cooking up a cyanide bomb" followed immediately by an operation involving 250 officers.

In between there would be as much research of the information as possible (they clearly had names and addresses, so lot of research would be possible, which would undoubtedly throw up other associates enabling more research to be done) trying to (a) confirm the parts of the original information capable of confirmation (i.e. facts - names, addresses, vehicles, phone numbers or whatever) and (b) take the information on a stage (primarily by identifying other associates, addresses, vehicles, etc. and any activity by the named persons capable of corroborating motivation or whatever (e.g. any attendance at extremist meetings, travel to Pakistan or whatever).

There would also be as much surveillance as possible. Even if there was not much time, an operation such as this would not (in my experience) be launched without at least some human / technical surveillance of the house in question and, probably, quite considerable such surveillance over several days / weeks (more being carried out unless the information was such that intervention at the earliest opportunity was essential or it may be too late).

If absolutely nothing in the original information was substantiated in any way there is no way an operation such as this would have been launched. Though it is eminently possible that there was only an uncorroborated claim about precisely what they were meant to be up to (i.e. the cyanide bomb bit).
 
TAE said:
Getting shot and having your house taken apart is described as 'inconvenience and disruption' ? :rolleyes:
Every time I have seen that phrase (or similar) used by the police (i.e. AC Andy Hayman and DAC Rose Fitzpatrick) it has been addressed to the community of Forest Gate, not to the family in particular.

Do you have a link to the police using it in relation to the family?
 
TAE said:
Still nothing there.

The pieces I have heard actually spoken by AC Hayman and DAC Fitzpatrick are like this: "But I am also aware that in mounting this operation, we have caused disruption and inconvenience to many residents in Newham and for that, I apologise.".

Having had a bit more of a dig around, however, I have found media reports quoting a Met Police Spokesman using the phrase you quote. I hadn't seen that before. As you said, it is clearly a stupid thing to say. I doubt very much whether it was actually said in those words by a senior officer (or even a competent junior one!).

Sorry for the confusion.
 
What did you mean by "still nothing there" ?

Do Scotland Yard not speak for the police?
:confused:
 
TAE said:
What did you mean by "still nothing there" ?

Do Scotland Yard not speak for the police?
:confused:

Obviously, not when they say something as stupid as:

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "We appreciate the police operation has caused inconvenience and disruption to the occupants of the house.

"Scotland Yard spokesman" would normally be a press officer, not a police officer. Not a very good press officer, in this case.

:)
 
So ... Scotland Yard - the police - employ a 'press officer' to speak on their behalf, but when he does, he is not really speaking on their behalf, as he is not a police officer himself?
:confused:

Of course, when a police officer DOES say such words, Scotland Yard can also claim innocents, as such utterances are clearly just the words of an individual police officer, because the statement did not come from an official Scotland Yard spokesman.
:D ;)
 
TAE said:
What did you mean by "still nothing there" ?

Do Scotland Yard not speak for the police?
:confused:
From the link said:
404 - Page Not Found
This might be because you typed the web address incorrectly. Please check the address and spelling ensuring that it does not contain capital letters or spaces.

It is possible that the page you were looking for may have been moved, updated or deleted.

Please click the back button to try another link.

Or

Visit the BBC News Home Page.
Visit the BBC Sport Home Page.
Explore our full list of sites and services.

A "Scotland Yard spokesman" may or may not actually mean an official spokesman depending on how the journalist uses it. Usually it does mean an official release (put together by a minion in the Press Office and (frequently) never even seen by the officers involved in the matter before release. I used to insist on any relating to my cases being cleared by me or one of my team before clearance ... and it really pissed them off.
 
TAE said:
So ... Scotland Yard - the police - employ a 'press officer' to speak on their behalf, but when he does, he is not really speaking on their behalf, as he is not a police officer himself?
Yes, they are. As my earlier post accepting that it was a stupid thing to say made clear.
 
Oh you were getting a 404.

I'm getting 404 as well now, but I hope you trust me enough to believe that what I quoted was straight off the BBC webpage, including the double quotes.
 
TAE said:
I hope you trust me enough to believe that what I quoted was straight off the BBC webpage, including the double quotes.
Yeah sure, but from the short quote I couldn't pick up the context. As I said, I've found it elsewhere word for word now.

Next time I meet the senior press officer I know, they'll be getting seriously fined!
 
political interference?

The BBC is reporting here concerns that political pressure may have been applied to the police to oblige them to carry out the raid (bear in mind that the original story of an exploding biochemical poison vest was fantastic and silly -- about as convincing as the one about Saddam and the WMDs).
Ken Livingstone backed the police but said claims of political interference in the raid should be answered ... This followed claims police had doubts about the intelligence but were told to go ahead with the raid after it was referred to the government's security and intelligence co-ordinator, Sir Richard Mottram, said BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw.
 
I hope that's not what The Met meant when they said they did not have a choice. ;)

The version I heard was that the police did have doubts about the raid in advance and wanted to get themselves a "get-out-of-jail-free" card first before going in.

Either way, if they really had doubts about the raid, it makes it all the more questionable.
 
Jonti said:
The BBC is reporting here concerns that political pressure may have been applied to the police to oblige them to carry out the raid ...
I think there are a number of issues all mixed up in the phrase "political pressure", some of which are more concerning than others.

The police have operational independence from all other agencies, politicians, etc. That is a constitutional fact. They could say no, regardless of what anyone else says. They could say yes. If they say yes then their independence means that they must stand behind their decision. In the circumstances of this case, that could best be done by a very senior officer (probably the Commissioner) standing in front of the cameras and saying "We did what we did, this is why (so far as it can be shared). It was our decision. With the benefit of hindsight clearly it was mistaken and we will be doing whatever we need to do to compensate." I fear some of the shilly-shallying now is a symptom of not being prepared to do that, although several other officers have done it to a certain extent.

If the source was a police source then they are answerable for the quality of the intelligence as well. If it wasn't, then they may or may not have had any way of verifying it's reliability. I'd be surprised if they didn't get told details of the source so they could research them themselves, but it is possible they were not (the security servces are notoriously protective of sources, it was one of the key problems underlying the issues which arose in Northern Ireland). Even if they were, I would not have expected them automatically to have had the opportunity to interview the source themselves, in fact I'd be surprised if they did. If the source belonged to some other agency then they would be responsible for judging reliability and, quite rightly, the police would have to take their views into account. As has been noted though, they may have a variety of reasons for bigging up their source.

No matter what, a situation was arrived at in which there was certain information, judged to be (by whoever) of a certain reliability, which COULD justify an arrest / search operation. Whether or not to then mount that operation is the key issue (and if so, how). It is the police's decision but, bearing in mind the possible consequences of getting it wrong (in either way), it is inevitable (and I think quite right) that they would seek other views. I think the first reports told how the PM (or at least the Home Secretary) were advised in advance.

I don't think there would be anything wrong with the police asking something like "Look, we've got this situation. We're thinking of going in, but if it turns out to be wrong we're going to wind up the muslim community a bit more. If we don't, and something does goes bang and people die, we will be criticised for sitting on our hands. We're planning to do it, cos that is the least worst option. What do you reckon?" And view expressed could (and I think should) be taken into account in the final decision, but it would be wrong if the police wanted to do it and allowed themselves to be talked out of it for political or other non-operational reasons. Likewise if they didn't want to do it and were talked into it. But I would be surprised if that were the case. In effect, running it past the politicians is the nearest thing to asking the people that exists in such a situation.

Ultimately there appears to have been sufficient grounds to suspect to merit the granting of a search warrant and to justify the arrests. If the people arrested wish to challenge either aspect, then legal recourse does exist (and Gareth Pierce will not be slow to make thousands out of doing so).

Once a decision to carry out the operation was made, HOW to do it comes into play. Although armed rapid entries are inherently risky, hundreds take place every year without anyone getting hurt. Being prepared for the worst "What if ..." by having CBRN suits, scientists and enough officers in reserve to mount an evacuation or containment seems to make sense doesn't it? For the sake of a few quid (in the big scheme of things) and the chance that people may allege overkill it's got to be the most sensible approach - identifying a risk and putting in place reasonable control measures that, in themselves, have no massive downside (the fact 250 officers were involved made absolutely no difference to how the operation went - it would have turned out the same whether 20 or 2000 were). And the arrangements would definitely be the decision of the police - No10 and the security services wouldn't know where to start planning something like that in a policing context.
 
detective-boy said:
Ultimately there appears to have been sufficient grounds to suspect to merit the granting of a search warrant and to justify the arrests. If the people arrested wish to challenge either aspect, then legal recourse does exist
We could add: and it will be a complete waste of time because no prosecution against the police on such a basis wil lever succeeed because the courts will simply sympathise with the police. Apologists for police conduct will then use this to say that the police were quite right and everybody's so unfair to them: and when the victims suggest that they're playing against a stacked deck, they'll be accused of having a chip on their shoulder. (In this case, a chip on one and a bullet in the other.)
 
So what is the court's role in all this? If the police got a search warrant (or whatever they need to go in) then there must have been a judge who looked at the evidence and said: "Yep, that's reasonable, I'll allow the search".

So in that sense it's not JUST the police's decision.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
We could add: and it will be a complete waste of time because no prosecution against the police on such a basis wil lever succeeed because the courts will simply sympathise with the police.
Why? You never seen the police pay out when facing a legal claim they cannot defend? You never seen a court finding against them?

It doesn't happen often which may mean (a) the actions complained of are usually lawful or (b) the courts cut the police too much slack and the dice are totally loaded in their favour.

You (and many others) take the view that (b) is always the case. Having been the subject of complaints, investigations and civil actions, I KNOW that it is not, though there are significant imbalances in power between an individual and the police service. I would say the truth is in the middle somewhere, nearer to (a).
 
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