Police shoot man in forest gate

[Kid_Eternity]

I thought the BBC said the other day that the police had shot someone in East London...but yeah it's getting a bit out there. I smell a fuck up on the part of the police (mainly because if Respect are looking to make political capital out of this there's a good chance of one)...

 

[TAE]

The first thing the police did was to get the IPCC involved, so I find it unlikely that they didn't shoot anyone.

 

[lostexpectation]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/04/chemical_bioterror_analysis/

interesting artilce cynical of the bio/chem terror threat

 

[TAE]

With an interesting link to the ricin story in it.

 

[editor]

Yeah - good article that.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/04/chemical_bioterror_analysis/

interesting artilce cynical of the bio/chem terror threat

A very interesting article. Nice find.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Rum that a rather critical report about 7/7 is comng out tomorrow, the first and only public investigation into the facts of 7/7 - albeit with a limited remit and limited resources. Done by the GLA, not the Government.


And I have had over 60 media calls/requests/mails about it.


And then all of a sudden a terror raid, grabbing the headlines.

Hmmmm.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Rum that a rather critical report about 7/7 is comng out tomorrow, the first and only public investigation into the facts of 7/7 - albeit with a limited remit and limited resources. Done by the GLA, not the Government.


And I have had over 60 media calls/requests/mails about it.


And then all of a sudden a terror raid, grabbing the headlines.

Hmmmm.

Oh dear. I can see the loons loving that post...

 

[laptop]

Oh dear. I can see the loons loving that post...

You think they'll cook up an argument that it was a false-flag raid, actually carried out by renegade lizards pretending to be the Metropolitan Police?

 

[JHE]

Oh dear. I can see the loons loving that post...

Indeed.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

You think they'll cook up an argument that it was a false-flag raid, actually carried out by renegade lizards pretending to be the Metropolitan Police?

Yep.

 

[Badger Kitten]

It was the Times that made the point on Saturday, not me.

It seems an awfully expensive way to back up a comment by Reid that there were ''20 known conspiracies stretching M15 to the limit'' and that was why no 7/7 public enquiry would be forthcoming, especially as it is London Ambulance service and communication/planning that are going to get a shoeing, not M15 this time, though.

But it might be satanic owl worshipping lizards, who can tell these days?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

True, anyway, Blairwatch has something to say on the matter of the weapon used in this shooting: http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/1132

 

[Radar]

As does the actual IPCC press release.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

True, anyway, Blairwatch has something to say on the matter of the weapon used in this shooting: http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/1132

Well he's going out on a limb claiming that a 9mm pistol round is usually fatal. His analysis may be correct but if you go to correct someone it's best to make sure your information is rock solid imo.

(Also an Mp5 is rifled, and as such could be described as a small rifle, and for all those who don't play CS it's a good way to describe what it is.)

 

[detective-boy]

I'm talking about instances where the police are making stuff up.

I fail to see why this makes any difference to the point you were making. Whether real or imaginary the courts will always start by asking "Why was this person arrested?". Physical resistance to the arrest will not make any difference to that whatsoever.

I understand the point you are making about the Courts "always" believing the police (they don't actually, though the police are usually in a stronger position, being more used to the process if nothing else) but that is a different issue.

 

[detective-boy]

The first thing the police did was to get the IPCC involved, so I find it unlikely that they didn't shoot anyone.

The IPCC would have been involved just the same if the person had been shot by someone else during the course of a police operation. Reference is where someone has died or been seriously injured whilst in any contact with the police (as suspect, victim, witness or whatever) or shortly after any such contact. (Which is why many "Deaths in Custody" figures need to be approached with caution).

The IPCC issued a statement which confirmed that a police firearm had discharged a single shot. How that came to be discharged is the focus of their enquiry and I would not expect any definitive release of information from them any time soon as it may prejudice any subsequent proceedings. http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/pr020606_forest

 

[lostexpectation]

any other local blogs bar the radical activist one, i read in the daily mail it says his parents are going on their planned holiday and describes them getting backing from the extreme left newham monitoring project

 

[detective-boy]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/04/chemical_bioterror_analysis/

interesting artilce cynical of the bio/chem terror threat

The article provides a balanced review of the possibilities of chemical and biological attack. There is a line which criticises the Japanese security services which, it suggests, left the door open for the Sarin attack in Tokyo:

In addition it benefited from the frankly inexplicable Japanese security climate of the time, which left the cult free to do dangerous and scary things

That is worth remembering, especially bearing in mind the criticism levelled since 7 July about how little was done about Khan despite him having been known as a minor suspect.

The article calls for a risk assessment process. Do they think that is not done? Well, it is. And, for the most part, the "wills" are not ignored due to attention being focused on the "mights". But the resources of every agency are bounded (albeit recently expanded) and, as a moments thought will confirm, a risk assessment and management approach is not 100% effective. Things WILL still get through and things WILL still be done even though hindsight shows it was unnecessary.

Realism is needed (not least in the media). And the "blame culture" which has been pervasive in this country for years needs to be binned.

 

[detective-boy]

True, anyway, Blairwatch has something to say on the matter of the weapon used in this shooting: http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/1132

Just in case anyone is not aware, the existence of the MP5 as a standard police issue firearm (along with the Glock pistol) is hardly a secret. Check out any uniformed officer wandering around Heathrow. They're the long ones on a shoulder strap ...

(And, although they do have a fully automatic setting (which means they continue to fire bullets until they run out whilst the trigger is pulled), police issue ones are restricted to the single shot or short burst (three bullets, I think) settings.

 

[zArk]

solicitor Julian Young, who represents Mr Koyair, said there was "no truth" in reports his client was responsible for the gunshot.

He said of events during the raid: "He said he did not struggle, did not cause his brother to be shot and did not shoot his brother."

Julian Young and Kate Roxburgh
The brothers' solicitors said their clients were innocent

Mr Kahar's solicitor had assured him "there is no question of the fact that the police fired the gun", he added.

BBC Home Affairs Correspondent Daniel Sandford said there was confusion over the shooting, partly because the only official statement - from the head of the anti-terrorist branch, Peter Clarke - did not say police shot the man.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5045104.stmp


Stirring up more mistrust of police.

But the operation has angered some locals, prompting a leaflet to be circulated announcing a meeting to discuss the raid.

Sir Iqbal Sacranie, the outgoing head of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he had had discussions with police "at the highest level", who had assured him that the operation in Forest Gate was intelligence-led.

He said the facts needed to be established about the suspected threat posed, but added that a sense of "proportionality" was important in such investigations and he could see why the use of about 250 police officers had angered locals.

 

[lostexpectation]

maybe this was true for every terrorist raid, but it seems it the police will be far quicker to shoot someone in a 'terrorist operation" even if there no reports of them owning guns, or even if they can see they are not carrying any weapons of any kind, rather then subdueing them in some way (punch,tazer,cs) they'll shoot incase the person has a bomb under their pyjamas

 

[zArk]

maybe this was true for every terrorist raid, but it seems it the police will be far quicker to shoot someone in a 'terrorist operation" even if there no reports of them owning guns, or even if they can see they are not carrying any weapons of any kind, rather then subdueing them in some way (punch,tazer,cs) they'll shoot incase the person has a bomb under their pyjamas

why do you think young black men in america are topless or rip off their tee-shirt whenever you see them on a police/stop program ? so the cops can see they havent got guns and wont shoot them.

cops are just as scared as anyone else, shit, if they were told that mr x might have a suicide exploding vest i think a well placed shot in the shoulder is understandable and well restrained.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The Guardian has learned that over the weekend police intensified their planning for dealing with community anger if it turns out the intelligence was wrong.

Security and intelligence officials yesterday defended the decision to raid the house: "We have a duty of care to the general public, we can't do [police anti-terrorist] operations by halves," said one official.

A senior police source explained the police's dilemma: "In other crime you can take a risk to firm up the intelligence. The trouble with this new world of terrorism is you don't have the time, you can't firm up the intelligence to the point you like.

"The public may have to get used to this sort of incident, with the police having to be safe rather than sorry."

link

Great, so they don't have a fucking clue but want us to just get used to them running around shooting people because it's better to be "safe (and shot) than sorry (and not shot)"?

 

[lostexpectation]

why do you think young black men in america are topless or rip off their tee-shirt whenever you see them on a police/stop program ? so the cops can see they havent got guns and wont shoot them.

cops are just as scared as anyone else, shit, if they were told that mr x might have a suicide exploding vest i think a well placed shot in the shoulder is understandable and well restrained.

huh is DB possesing you now?

but i thought he was shot in struggling man?

lots more people in US have guns, you respond to guns with guns, how do you respond to pyjamas?

 

[lostexpectation]

link

Great, so they don't have a fucking clue but want us to just get used to them running around shooting people because it's better to be "safe (and shot) than sorry (and not shot)"?

was the much 'community anger' after de Menezes?

 

[zArk]

Anti-terrorism police are to resume searching for a chemical device which intelligence had suggested might be at a terraced house in east London.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5047200.stm


so help me if they emerge with a bottle of domestos and a mixing bowl

 

[Greebozz]

There is a lot of interesting reading on this thread, but I am getting impatient now, why can't the police issue as statement about why the guy was shot?

Please god let it not be and accidental shooting, surely not with professionally trained people?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

If it is then this along with the stockwell shooting raises serious questions about the entire process the police use before shooting someone.

 

[cemertyone]

There is a lot of interesting reading on this thread, but I am getting impatient now, why can't the police issue as statement about why the guy was shot?

Please god let it not be and accidental shooting, surely not with professionally trained people?

Because we are entering the arena of the afer-damage limitation exercise period. The Met have fucked things up once again but then again they had to go on the "advice" of the all seeing " Security services".
The manner in which the " substantial" criminal records of the two brothers where released and leaked ( which it turns out was a complete fabrication) was indicitive of the beginings of a concerted smear campain and the attempted nullifiying of any concerted public counter reaction to the operation.
There are echos of the Jean Mendes case here in that initially all manner of rumour, lies and innuendo are allowed to filter out into the public concencious ( only later to be retracted) but by then the damage is done and the public "mood" has been developed.
You can bet your bottom dollar that if a SINGLE item of evidential proof had been found at the house the Met would have been displaying it to every news and media organisation in the world.
THIER SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES.....