Police planting catapults on anarchists? I don't believe it.

[nick h.]

Here's my take on it. Full of assumptions...just my interpretation of the evidence:

- it did happen
- the man in black was so comically obvious that he can't have been engaged in a serious plot. Just some joker who enjoys winding up conspiraloons and is right now eagerly scanning anarchist blogs hoping to read about his prank
- the officers who searched Greg H were making a reasonable investigation into the discovery of offensive weapons at a gathering of anarchists. Perhaps a little OTT, but that's to be expected in the age of FIT teams
- the officer who found the catapults wasn't part of any plot. Yes, somebody told him where to find the catapults..could have been the prankster or a plain clothes officer in the crowd.

The whole thing is such a joke that not even many anarchists are taking it seriously. Otherwise we'd have read a lot more about it. The people who think the man in black was a state-sponsored agent provocateur are probably the same people who think that 9/11 and 7/7 were also state-sponsored plots.

 

[ymu]

Nothing in the news yet. They found an "arms cache" right next to the anarchist rally, and haven't run off to tell the press yet?

 

[butchersapron]

You've changed your story from it didn't happen to it did happen nick. Why?

 

[ymu]

I mean, all this build up and they haven't told anyone about foiling this dastardly plot by those anarchists that they kept telling us would turn violent and we should really stay away because it was all going to get really nasty and now they've been proved right but they're not telling anyone?

 

[nick h.]

You've changed your story from it didn't happen to it did happen nick. Why?

Mainly because of this: http://brokebutmakingfilms.blogspot.com/ It's not anonymous, it's from a film director with a reputation to protect, so I don't think he would invent the whole thing. I'm not convinced by his interpretation of events, but he seems a credible witness. What do you think?

 

[butchersapron]

What do i think about the stuff that i posted earlier in defence of the argument that it happened?

 

[DaveCinzano]

I mean, all this build up and they haven't told anyone about foiling this dastardly plot by those anarchists that they kept telling us would turn violent and we should really stay away because it was all going to get really nasty and now they've been proved right but they're not telling anyone?

The 'terror plot' arrests in Plymouth from Friday to Sunday (but only announced now, after the union-dominated demo of the weekend but before the week's direct action events) should do nicely on that front.

 

[nick h.]

Another thing the conspiraloons could throw into the mix is the army practising its VIP evacuation procedures because of an Al Qaeda dirty bomb threat to the G20 http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=284344&highlight=bikini I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet. Searching for a suitcase bomb could be a great excuse for the police to take some very extreme measures against anarchists.

 

[nick h.]

What do i think about the stuff that i posted earlier in defence of the argument that it happened?

OK, no need to ask what you think! But I hope you can understand that I don't believe anything that anonymous people here or on blogs claim unless it's verifiable. And I have tried to verify it by reading everything I can find on the web.

 

[ymu]

OK, no need to ask what you think! But I hope you can understand that I don't believe anything that anonymous people here or on blogs claim unless it's verifiable. And I have tried to verify it by reading everything I can find on the web.

So what do you think of the media aspects of the events so far?

Exhibit A: The massive build-up in the press, predicting violence and mayhem. Note the large number of slightly bemused posts on these boards, whole threads on media/government propaganda ... we know the government and police have been working the press into a frenzy about this for weeks.

Exhibit B: Specific mention of a catapult plot by senior plod on Today, as part of the hysterical media build-up

Exhibit C: Nada, zip, zilch when the catapults are found. Super-sexy media story, makes the hysteria seem justified seeing as nothing kicked off.

Circumstantial, I know. But come on? How gullible are you?

 

[DaveCinzano]

OK, no need to ask what you think! But I hope you can understand that I don't believe anything that anonymous people here or on blogs claim unless it's verifiable. And I have tried to verify it by reading everything I can find on the web.

I suggested you actually ask Ian or Greg about what happened, at the beginning of this thread.

If the extent of your informed opinion is passively grazing off the internet, then how are you any better informed than anyone else?

You are not Rumpole, and this is not the Old Bailey.

 

[nick h.]

I'm not trying to be an expert on anarchists or riots or the Police state. It would be a complete waste of time for me to ask Ian or Greg about it. I'm just tyre-kicking at urban like everyone else. I found something which i thought was interesting and rescued it. Why didn't you? You knew about it before I did - but you just left it in the bin.

 

[editor]

Searching for a suitcase bomb could be a great excuse for the police to take some very extreme measures against anarchists.

Like what exactly?

 

[nick h.]

So what do you think of the media aspects of the events so far?

Not really interested - media budgets are so tight that there isn't the headcount to investigate anything properly. Things are rushed off in half an afternoon when they need to be researched for a couple of days. So I don't trust many media outlets to get it right.

 

[STFC]

Could be someone who wanted to distribute stuff getting cold feet and dumping it, rather than any plot.

That sounds more likely than some shadowy plot.

 

[nick h.]

Like what exactly?

For example, Belfast/Gaza-style checkpoints preventing people from gathering for demos.

 

[editor]

For example, Belfast/Gaza-style checkpoints preventing people from gathering for demos.

Armed checkpoints seem a little over-dramatic, no?

 

[danny la rouge]

For example, Belfast/Gaza-style checkpoints preventing people from gathering for demos.

You approve of this? Or what?

 

[nick h.]

I think if you were Jacqui Smith you could justify checkpoints on security grounds by saying that we have received a warning about an Al Qaeda dirty bomb at the G20. (Which may be true.) You could say it was for the safety of the demonstrators.

But I don't think she would do that because the economic damage would be too severe - as you say checkpoints are too dramatic - people would go panic buying for bottled water and tins of beans and then stay at home. Tourism would stop, more retailers would go bust..

 

[ymu]

OK, no need to ask what you think! But I hope you can understand that I don't believe anything that anonymous people here or on blogs claim unless it's verifiable. And I have tried to verify it by reading everything I can find on the web.

Sure.

Not really interested - media budgets are so tight that there isn't the headcount to investigate anything properly. Things are rushed off in half an afternoon when they need to be researched for a couple of days. So I don't trust many media outlets to get it right.

But, it's really easy to read between the lines of a media report. When they quote Ed Milliband, you know that that's roughly what Ed Milliband said. When they interview senior plod on the radio, you can hear exactly what they're saying.

So, once more. Don't you think it's interesting that we had all these senior politicians and senior plod predicting mayhem and catapults, but when the offending items are found and the plot successfully foiled, there is no mention?

None of these facts are mediated by journalists, save for editorial decisions on what is and is not broadcast. You've heard the politicians, you've heard plod. You know the volume of reporting, you know it's all a lot of scare tactics and red bikinis. You can google as easily as I can for mainstream reports of the discovery and know that there appear to be none.

So, what do you think? You've picked every other source apart, admitted that there is irrefutable evidence that these events occurred, but you won't cross-examine the case against the police. Why is that?

 

[nick h.]

You approve of this? Or what?

That's a rather odd conclusion. What I would like is a harmonious world where there is no reason for anarchists to go on demos or for Al Qaeda to kill anyone. I would like everywhere to be like Norway - have you been there? Very small gulf between rich and poor, state-funded everything...just one big contented bunch of middle income people who don't obsess about displays of wealth. Very little crime, leave your doors unlocked, people are friendly and helpful to each other. Utopia. Except for the winter.

 

[danny la rouge]

What I would like is a harmonious world where there is no reason for anarchists to go on demos or for Al Qaeda to kill anyone.

Do you see an equivalence there?

 

[nick h.]

you won't cross-examine the case against the police. Why is that?

Because it's so flimsy and I'm playing devil's advocate.

I was hoping the thread would be about the facts of the catapult-planting. Perhaps you want to know my motives/politics, so here they are. Skip to the next post if this is irrelevant.

I started the thread because the I thought the thing I found in the bin was hilarious. And I was dreaming that the plot might be for real and that I could help strengthen the case against the police by flushing out some decent evidence against them. So far it's been a failure, but I live in hope.

I think the Police are mostly bully boys on a power trip. They probably always will be - it's hard to assemble a decent police force from the sort of people who want to join it. The Blair govt gave them way too much power with badly drafted laws. History shows that when the police are given too much power it's hardly ever taken away from them. But we must try!

Evidence of agent provocateur activities with the police dishing out deadly weapons could help to start a public debate. I think their enforcement of all the new anti-terror and antisocial behaviour laws and all the surveillance they're doing has conditioned them into controlling political dissent. Which is not what we pay them for. But even the decent officers think that doing their job means using (and stretching) all the powers they're given, so they end up constructing a police state.

Now for the media: most journalists are frightened of redundancy. And making a big mistake in a controversial story kills their careers. So they're not going to do this story unless the evidence against the police gets much, much, much stronger.

If the evidence was there, a Fleet St paper or major news programme would run it. Yes, the media are tied to the establishment, TPTB, whatever you want to call them. But that never stops them savaging inept or criminal coppers. Miscarriages of justice often make the front page, which means the readers like them too. There's no good reason not to print them IF you can stand them up.

I'm an occasional freelance writer of health features. I wouldn't try to do this story myself - I don't have the contacts or the track record. Anyway, if I did want to it would be pretty dumb to ask everyone to put the evidence on this board. I'd send PMs and make phone calls. But maybe a staff journalist somewhere will read this thread and have a dig.

I suppose I feel quite strongly about all this because people I know in Brixton have been bullied by the police. So have I, come to think of it. They just charge around spouting nonsense much of the time. So we all need to rein them in a bit. If I do get some good evidence I'll do my best to put it to good use by giving it to a friend in news.

I seem to have rambled on for so long that I've put myself to sleep. But I still think this catapult-planting thing is nonsense.

 

[nick h.]

Do you see an equivalence there?

If you mean "do I think anarchists on demos are equivalent to Al Qaeda killing people", er, no. I have even been on demos myself. In fact I organised one in front of the House of Commons.

 

[ymu]

Because it's so flimsy and I'm playing devil's advocate.

I was hoping the thread would be about the facts of the catapult-planting. Perhaps you want to know my motives/politics, so here they are. Skip to the next post if this is irrelevant.

I started the thread because the I thought the thing I found in the bin was hilarious. And I was dreaming that the plot might be for real and that I could help strengthen the case against the police by flushing out some decent evidence against them. So far it's been a failure, but I live in hope.

I think the Police are mostly bully boys on a power trip. They probably always will be - it's hard to assemble a decent police force from the sort of people who want to join it. The Blair govt gave them way too much power with badly drafted laws. History shows that when the police are given too much power it's hardly ever taken away from them. But we must try!

Evidence of agent provocateur activities with the police dishing out deadly weapons could help to start a public debate. I think their enforcement of all the new anti-terror and antisocial behaviour laws and all the surveillance they're doing has conditioned them into controlling political dissent. Which is not what we pay them for. But even the decent officers think that doing their job means using (and stretching) all the powers they're given, so they end up constructing a police state.

Now for the media: most journalists are frightened of redundancy. And making a big mistake in a controversial story kills their careers. So they're not going to do this story unless the evidence against the police gets much, much, much stronger.

If the evidence was there, a Fleet St paper or major news programme would run it. Yes, the media are tied to the establishment, TPTB, whatever you want to call them. But that never stops them savaging inept or criminal coppers. Miscarriages of justice often make the front page, which means the readers like them too. There's no good reason not to print them IF you can stand them up.

I'm an occasional freelance writer of health features. I wouldn't try to do this story myself - I don't have the contacts or the track record. Anyway, if I did want to it would be pretty dumb to ask everyone to put the evidence on this board. I'd send PMs and make phone calls. But maybe a staff journalist somewhere will read this thread and have a dig.

I suppose I feel quite strongly about all this because people I know in Brixton have been bullied by the police. So have I, come to think of it. They just charge around spouting nonsense much of the time. So we all need to rein them in a bit. If I do get some good evidence I'll do my best to put it to good use by giving it to a friend in news.

I seem to have rambled on for so long that I've put myself to sleep. But I still think this catapult-planting thing is nonsense.

So the Home Office and Met are busy sending out press releases prior to the event, but suddenly go silent when they have a documented haul of catapults? Or journalists don't run with official press releases unless they can independently verify the story?

Weasel.

 

[nick h.]

You're not making sense. How can it be a story if there's no way to link the catapults to the police or the anarchists and all the witnesses' descriptions of the man in black sound like a performance artist? And you seriously want anyone to write that he was an agent of the State? Get real.

You posted your reply so fast that you didn't read my post, let alone think about it. If you want to play Punch and Judy, find someone else. If you want an intelligent discussion, engage your brain and post something with merit.

 

[editor]

I would like everywhere to be like Norway - have you been there? Very small gulf between rich and poor, state-funded everything...just one big contented bunch of middle income people who don't obsess about displays of wealth. Very little crime, leave your doors unlocked, people are friendly and helpful to each other. Utopia.

Except that it has a suicide rate far, far higher than the UK, so perhaps not everyone is as chuffed with life as you make out. Heard any good Norwegian bands recently?

 

[butchersapron]

Keep it on track eh?

 

[editor]

I think if you were Jacqui Smith you could justify checkpoints on security grounds by saying that we have received a warning about an Al Qaeda dirty bomb at the G20. (Which may be true.) You could say it was for the safety of the demonstrators.

Oh, and the public would be sure to accept that as an excuse for Belfast/Gaza-style checkpoints. Not.

 

[editor]

Keep it on track eh?

He brought up Norway as some sort of Utopia for the people. I corrected him. Onwards!