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people who voted tory

Patteran said:
Empathy & solidarity based on an understanding that we're all parts of, & entirely reliant upon, a giant interconnected human system - but as has been pointed out, it's difficult championing collectivism when we're targeted daily with the commodified mystification of the individual. 'Because you're worth it.' (that probably wouldn't be a great opening line to a neighbour, either).
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Someone (butchers probably) posted something the other day with a great summing up of the process: the taking of something that was once considered a right (housing, education, for instance) and turning it into a capitalist investment. What was once provided collectively is stolen from us and sold back to us as individuals. I think this must have an effect on attitudes - not least on expectations, on people's ideas about what they should expect.

I think there is some truth to the dictum of the establishment in post-ww2 US: Workers with mortgages don't go on strike.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
It knocks my optimism. Has done ever since.

I admire those who keep theirs. A friend of mine spent seven years in Pinochet's prisons. Even now, he remains optimistic. I try to think of that.
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You have to be optimistic and take the view that youre on the right side, and good will ultimately triumph over evil in the end . Helps sometimes if you're a catholic...blind faith can sustain people ;)

What that march did show was that a lot of people actually cared, that human nature isn't all that bad. And that's a basis for optimism . If there's a will there can well be a way . It's finding that way which is the bugger .

Personally I don't think it will be found in the usual left miasma , or even the labour party . Both have passed their sell by date I reckon . Other avenues need exploring . There needs to be day to day fights and small day to day victories, within communities , both urban and rural . Bus services, youth clubs, crèches...all that stuff . Go to people you've never gone to before, get out of the bubble .
Make the fight a cultural thing . The SNP won by taking the position they were fighting for Scotland's soul...that neo liberalism was a form of savagery the Scottish people found culturally anathema . They didn't need to go far left .
In England there's a patriotic notion concerning the " English sense of fair play" . What's happening s deeply unfair , and that can be spun as unpatriotic as well as morally wrong . That it's alien to what England traditionally stands for ...even if thats a load of bollocks its still worth using . It needs to be made a morally repugnant position within communities . Who also need to be empowered to fight it . To be given confidence, which breeds more confidence .
Hope leads to faith and with faith you can move mountains .
 
Just as an aside has anyone ever had any dealings with that PBnetwork crowd ?

Participatory budgeting ?

Sounds interesting to me .
 
Casually Red said:
It's also a sad fact they can kettle, arrest and douse with water cannon to their hearts content the usual suspects ...students and alternative types...and nobody cares . But could they really do that to a crowd of pensioners, nuns and people in wheelchairs, mums and toddlers ? Can they denounce those people as deranged Stalinists driven by an agenda of hate and envy ? Anyone looking at participatory democracy as a means of resistance has to be engaging with those very people on a daily basis . Not lefty wankers IMHO
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This, it's something I've felt for a long time and it's not getting any better. I remember going to occupy Bristol and feeling pretty down hearted about it all. Here were these people talking about how 1% of the population have it all wrapped up, how we're going to pay for their trashing of the economy and that 1% will be richer for it and so on and meanwhile what was going on? There were people walking by, people going to work, people coming home from work and taking barely any notice and, in some cases, rolling their eyes. These are the exact people that you need to engage and they were ignoring it. My hunch is because it's this whole sterotypical image of the crusty, dreadlocked lefty wanker that's all too easy to make because it was there right in front of their eyes. There were people hanging around that camp pissed out of their head and falling all over the place in the middle of the afternoon. Why are people walking past going to even bother to want to pay attention to it? Especially when they do read papers who say things like 'Red Ed' and 'unwashed masses,' and when you get people like matey upthread boring on about communist dialectics or that twat I met at the BBC occupation when Israel was bombing Gaza who, when told he might get manhandled by the police if they evict them replied with, in a very patronising way, 'or womanhandled, we're equal ops here' it turns people off. It's very easy for the media to wrap all of this up into a big ball and say 'this is what the left is, this is what you're voting for if you vote labour' sprinkle it with a little fear about tax rises and deals with the SNP and you get an election drubbing.

Of course I'm not saying labour are left but they're painted as being on the left, even the mildest social democratic offerings illicit screams of 'Socialist! Red Ed' and blah blah. The point is fuck labour but you need to engage a broad public. If even the mildest of the mild centre left offerings can't do then what chance does anything further left than that have at the moment?
 
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Doctor Carrot said:
'or womanhandled, we're equal ops here'
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That could so easily be a joke on telly, but it's what happens time and time again . Nobody wants to listen to that stuff except the narcissistic twats who define themselves by it . I'm convinced it's deliberately exclusionary . It's just a scene . They don't want people in it , it's a bubble were they can indulge themselves in a manner that wouldn't be tolerated outside of it . So my view is that bubble is just as toxic and useless as the labour party ...it's totally unfit for purpose . Genuine progressives have to look at ways to get out of it and engage with a completely different constituency . It's unhealthy beyond belief and largely irreformable .

At the occupy thing in Belfast some twat actually lobbed a telly out of the upstairs window of that disused bank they'd taken over . Just missed a woman with a pram by inches . Scum like that knew they had an environment were arseholes were tolerated .
 
Patteran said:
Empathy & solidarity based on an understanding that we're all parts of, & entirely reliant upon, a giant interconnected human system - but as has been pointed out, it's difficult championing collectivism when we're targeted daily with the commodified mystification of the individual. 'Because you're worth it.' (that probably wouldn't be a great opening line to a neighbour, either).
Click to expand...

That premiership and wag bollocks is a lot to do with it as well . Colleen fucking Rooney or whoever never out of the paper wandering through Knightsbridge with an armful of designer bags ...for a lot of people that's sold as " aspirational " as well . Day in day out . All poor women have to do is snag themselves some twat who is good at kicking a ball around . Then they can buy loads of overpriced shit they don't need .

There needs to be a strong voice and opinion that says very clearly this stuff is obscene, it's socially unacceptable . At least have the decency to hide it in a lidl bag instead of flaunting it .
 
Patteran said:
Yes - if by 'ethics' you mean the philosophical investigation into the subject rather than the day to day sense of right & wrong that exist in w/c communities - but equally, it wouldn't be my opening line if I was talking to a neighbour about resisting closures to local services. And that was the original point - don't bombard people with theory.

ETA - spelling corrected
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What is right and wrong varies from w/c community to w/c community. What is right in a Turkish w/c community inclined to Islamism is radically different to a turkish w/c community inclined towards Leninism (yes, I'm not making that up, before you ask.)

You're going to have to do better than that I'm afraid. Otherwise your point still remains at the level of abstraction.
 
do you want to be more right on than thou
or do you want to get shit done?

if you actually want to get stuff done it means compromise,talking to people who may disagree or just not be that bothered.
not dressing weirdly and using normal words.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Problem is, that's exactly what I thought in the two-million-people-shuffle against the war. I looked around at all these people who had never marched before, who didn't know quite what to do even, how to act on a march, and I thought 'they can't ignore this, this is different'.

But ignore it they did.
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Of course. if change isn't a material necessity then people aren't likely to give a shit. Change isn't going to show its merits on the pages of Das Kapital but the need for the w/c to assert its species-being. Many people won't even know what sort of change they're being involved in. They will merely need to change to preserve their essence. Call it nihilistic but it's the truth. on Sorry CR. You overplay the subjective factor of the class struggle way too much. I'm not going to try with you
 
Cr isn't fetishising activism though, his argument follows the "give up activism" line, kind of what the IWCA were trying I think, maybe along the lines of a lot of what the black Panthers did (education, breakfast clubs, after school clubs and the like) rather than activism which is demonstrations, direct action etc.

Beyond the first, strategic, decision, you don't need much, if any, theory. You just need to be able to see the issues in your community and take action to fix/help them.

Practice needs theory though, it's just blindly flailing around hoping to get it right without it.

Eta: the theory part here comes in that first decision to change your strategy and therefore tactics, rather than later on when you're acting.
 
Casually Red said:
You have to be optimistic and take the view that youre on the right side, and good will ultimately triumph over evil in the end . Helps sometimes if you're a catholic...blind faith can sustain people ;)

What that march did show was that a lot of people actually cared, that human nature isn't all that bad. And that's a basis for optimism . If there's a will there can well be a way . It's finding that way which is the bugger .

Personally I don't think it will be found in the usual left miasma , or even the labour party . Both have passed their sell by date I reckon . Other avenues need exploring . There needs to be day to day fights and small day to day victories, within communities , both urban and rural . Bus services, youth clubs, crèches...all that stuff . Go to people you've never gone to before, get out of the bubble .
Make the fight a cultural thing . The SNP won by taking the position they were fighting for Scotland's soul...that neo liberalism was a form of savagery the Scottish people found culturally anathema . They didn't need to go far left .
In England there's a patriotic notion concerning the " English sense of fair play" . What's happening s deeply unfair , and that can be spun as unpatriotic as well as morally wrong . That it's alien to what England traditionally stands for ...even if thats a load of bollocks its still worth using . It needs to be made a morally repugnant position within communities . Who also need to be empowered to fight it . To be given confidence, which breeds more confidence .
Hope leads to faith and with faith you can move mountains .
Click to expand...

Ah so you're a mystical muppet. Great job. Blind faith it is then.
 
BigTom said:
Cr isn't fetishising activism though, his argument follows the "give up activism" line, kind of what the IWCA were trying I think, maybe along the lines of a lot of what the black Panthers did (education, breakfast clubs, after school clubs and the like) rather than activism which is demonstrations, direct action etc.

Beyond the first, strategic, decision, you don't need much, if any, theory. You just need to be able to see the issues in your community and take action to fix/help them.

Practice needs theory though, it's just blindly flailing around hoping to get it right without it.

Eta: the theory part here comes in that first decision to change your strategy and therefore tactics, rather than later on when you're acting.
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This isn't a specifically leftist position. In fact I'd argue that it is a very right-wing position! So yes he will ultimately have to end up committing to/fetishising activism. Turkish islamists did the same in the 90s when they were a marginal force and being hounded left, right and centre by the Kemalist establishment. Now Turkey is even more neoliberal than it was in the 90s and the islamists are well-integrated into capital and the ruling-class. Until you look to eradicate parliamentary and procedural democratic muck then you'll just end up eventually serving the establishment.

You can't just hope to separate content from form (nevermind that the two are inseparable) and be done with it.
 
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dialectician said:
This isn't a specifically leftist position. So yes he will ultimately have to end up committing to/fetishising activism. Turkish islamists did the same in the 90s. Now Turkey is even more neoliberal than it was in the 90s.

You can't just hope to separate content from form and be done with it.
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Everywhere is more neo liberal than in the 90s I reckon.

I think you can avoid activism, but I'm defining activism very tightly here as organising demos/actions/press stunts, it doesn't include stuff like union rep or food clubs, which are about practical support, but are still political (more outwardly so for a union rep).

Tbh there's more than a bit of a batten down the hatches feeling behind my attitude. IWCA didn't really work afaik, so it's not like I think there's a tried and tested path to follow here, and I haven't a clue what to do really.
 
There is only one thing to do now tbf. Intensify the struggle with those being directly affected by these irrational economics. Fuck trying to persuade your neighbour at this time to stop giving up shagging 50 people a month and masturbating over their boss's good looks.

Also, see my edit to the post above BigTom.
 
dialectician said:
Of course. if change isn't a material necessity then people aren't likely to give a shit. Change isn't going to show its merits on the pages of Das Kapital but the need for the w/c to assert its species-being. Many people won't even know what sort of change they're being involved in. They will merely need to change to preserve their essence. Call it nihilistic but it's the truth. on Sorry CR. You overplay the subjective factor of the class struggle way too much. I'm not going to try with you
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When you meet someone who's desperately worried about the electricity bill, and is heading off for couple of miles' walk to the nearest foodbank, just how much happier do you think they will be when you advise them to assert their species-being?
 
Celyn said:
When you meet someone who's desperately worried about the electricity bill, and is heading off for couple of miles' walk to the nearest foodbank, just how much happier do you think they will be when you advise them to assert their species-being?
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Don't patronise and misrepresent me mate. You know that is not what I was saying. And anyway, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't help and intensify the struggle for people in need. What I object to is trying to persuade your reactionary tory-voting w/c neighbour.
 
dialectician said:
Don't patronise and misrepresent me mate. You know that is not what I was saying. And anyway, I'm not arguing that we shouldn't help and intensify the struggle for people in need. What I object to is trying to persuade your reactionary tory-voting w/c neighbour.
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I don't think I am misrepresenting, and I think any patronising comes from you, actually. You do slightly seem to see the situation more in terms of theory than reality.

Although it hardly matters, I'm happy to report that I think it unlikely that my neighbours voted Tory. In my constituency, the Tories got a whopping great 4.7% of votes.
 
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Oh god this useless distinction between theory and reality. The legacy of 18th century crude materialism, folks.

I'm not arguing for people to abandon community work. In fact I'm arguing quite the opposite. But the lapdogs of moralism will hound you at every turn when you try to make a point with some nuance. :facepalm:
 
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Re: protest - people on both sides going on about it being useless if it doesn't affect real change. That change is not always quantifiable as in directly leading to a change in law. It breeds solidarity and gives people strength to fight on a personal level.
And it's important to register our dissent in these ways, even if the powers that be ignore us. Better than meekly rolling over and letting them shaft us.
 
Orang Utan said:
Re: protest - people on both sides going on about it being useless if it doesn't affect real change. That change is not always quantifiable as in directly leading to a change in law. It breeds solidarity and gives people strength to fight on a personal level.
And it's important to register our dissent in these ways, even if the powers that be ignore us. Better than meekly rolling over and letting them shaft us.
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Aye I'm not a bourgeois Zizekian who would argue that to resist means doing nothing today.

That being said we should vigorously criticise and self-criticise (not like maoists obv) notions of solidarity. Otherwise we end up falling into the optimistic trap that littlebabyjesus spoke of earlier on in this thread. Otherwise we'll still speak of trade union solidarity and the magical labour left because our notion of solidarity will be teleological and millenarian
 
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Casually Red said:
That could so easily be a joke on telly, but it's what happens time and time again . Nobody wants to listen to that stuff except the narcissistic twats who define themselves by it . I'm convinced it's deliberately exclusionary . It's just a scene . They don't want people in it , it's a bubble were they can indulge themselves in a manner that wouldn't be tolerated outside of it . So my view is that bubble is just as toxic and useless as the labour party ...it's totally unfit for purpose . Genuine progressives have to look at ways to get out of it and engage with a completely different constituency . It's unhealthy beyond belief and largely irreformable .
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The confusing thing is that this behaviour has become so widespread on the left that it isn't only actual activists engaging in it, it seeps into those (middle-class almost exclusively of course) who are mates with activists. Got called sexist by one of these types for saying 'the wife' the other day, same one who accused all football supporters of being racist and sexist. It really is a cancer but it's a virulent one and I cannot see it getting better, it's going to get worse.
 
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