people who voted tory
- Thread starter frogwoman
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Quartz famously believes that Cameron is a libertarian socialist. I kid you not.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Compared to the influence on policy a Prime Minister has? Don't be daft!
That was a question I asked many years ago.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
That was quite curious. There was nothing about it on the BBC website until some hours after it was first reported. It was the headline item on the ITV website. When it finally did appear on the BBC site, it was well down the page.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
More evidence of how weak and ineffective Milliwank was in countering the 'labour spent too much' narrative. Forget that the average deficit-to-gdp ratio was actually more under Thatcher than it was under pre-financial crisis Labour*, just blame it on the welfare spongers instead. What a tosser.
*Not that the debt or deficit even matter that much anyway. They don't.
eta: actually, they do matter - we need to run more of a deficit when the economy is in recovery, not less.
*Not that the debt or deficit even matter that much anyway. They don't.
eta: actually, they do matter - we need to run more of a deficit when the economy is in recovery, not less.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Because the tories were failing to achieve anything with the economy for so long I think Labour didn't feel like it was a battle worth fighting, the tory failure was self-evident. By the time things looked a bit better for Gideon it was probably too late to defend their record. They could have at least dissected the 'rising wages' stats and highlighted that they were only going up because the guys at the top were filling their pockets (especially after the cut to 45%, with some deferring payment until after then), and most people with average jobs were getting fuck all.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
In the run-up to the election, I tried pointing this out to a couple of people - what about the deficit, they demanded. It needs to be bigger at the moment, I replied. Without further explanation, they were dumbfounded - the lies about the deficit have become very widely normalised as truth.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
Not sure why a deficit is perceived to be such a big problem anyway. 'Hardworking families' mostly manage to operate on massive overdrafts. The UK got through a World War on one. Fuck the deficit. There are other priorities.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Also unlike "hardworking families" (or Eurozone members), the UK has its own currency to it can control. National finances are not comparable to household finances.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
And not a whisper of this from Labour, just a cowering acceptance of the fact that Blair/Brown spent way too much and that we must never return to those days of having hospitals that work and class sizes of less than 40.
Just like Miliband's apologies for 'letting all the Polish people in' and being soft on welfare, what effect could it have but to make his and his party look weak and let the tories dictate the agenda?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
To the tories the deficit is not perceived as a problem at all, rather they regard it vitally as the basis for justifying their small-state agenda. Normalised, over-simplified and cast as analogous with household finances the logic of fiscal consolidation has proved most persuasive to the electorate.
Relating such macro-economic trends to (hard-working) family economies has been a favourite vermin tactic since the early to mid 1970's, but no mainstream party has sought to counter the mis-information and challenge the notion that national deficits (and debt) have no relation to personal finance.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Incidentally I recently heard Jeremy Hardy making the amusing/right-on observation that the tory arguments about the cuts needed to address the 'problem of the deficit' are as absurd as a family claiming that the existence of their mortgage precludes them feeding the kids. Now, much as I can sympathise with and appreciate such 'humour', IMO such a comedic device is still in danger of (unconsciously?) supporting the vermin's narrative. Drawing any parallels with family finance risks reinforcing the notion that the same economic parameters exist; most families with mortgages look forward to the day when the debt is paid off...geddit Jeremy?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
For an even longer perspective take a gander at this chart.
In other words, the average debt ratio under labour was at one of the lowest levels for all administrations going back 300 years.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes, the national debt as a % GDP graph really is some sort of surrogate for expressing periods of expensive expeditionary warfare. Essentially that's why the concept of national debt arose in the first place.For an even longer perspective take a gander at this chart.
In other words, the average debt ratio under labour was at one of the lowest levels for all administrations going back 300 years.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
For an even longer perspective take a gander at this chart.
In other words, the average debt ratio under labour was at one of the lowest levels for all administrations going back 300 years.
Great chart, I was actually telling someone at work about this the other day and they just did not believe me. The idea of Labour always 'overspending' and the Conservative Party always having to 'clear up the mess' is now so deeply ingrained that you might as well just try convincing people that the sky is green and grass is blue.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
One factor supporting that 'conventional wisdom' being the LP's inability or unwillingness to challenge the falsehood. I think they lack confidence in the ability of the electorate to understand it.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
One factor supporting that 'conventional wisdom' being the LP's inability or unwillingness to challenge the falsehood. I think they lack confidence in the ability of the electorate to understand it.
I agree to an extent but I also think that you have to factor in that if they were to challenge the falsehood then that would undermine a lot of their own policies. If Labour had challenged the underlying narratives behind neoliberal austerity in a successful election campaign then they would have been faced with stronger opposition to the undoubted campaign of privatisation that they would have pursued.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
I think they lack confidence in the ability of the electorate to understand it.
Yep. The Fabian pricks have never been able to get over the idea that they are somehow blessed with a greater ability to think rationally than us plebs. That's why we need their paternalism; we're like children to these people. Anyway, I digress.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Indeed. More unwilling than unable.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
This happens in any number of threads, but I feel it's Streeck time! Recommended reading....
http://www.mpifg.de/pu/mpifg_dp/dp15-1.pdf
Have to say that things became clearer for when I started reading his stuff.
http://www.mpifg.de/pu/mpifg_dp/dp15-1.pdf
Have to say that things became clearer for when I started reading his stuff.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
One factor supporting that 'conventional wisdom' being the LP's inability or unwillingness to challenge the falsehood. I think they lack confidence in the ability of the electorate to understand it.
Do you really think that Labour would have been able to successfully challenge it if they wanted to? I don't think it's because the electorate are unable to understand it but people don't generally trust politicians, especially when they are trying to argue why something isn't their fault. Are people really open to their views being challenged directly by political parties?
The Labour leadership could justify their support for austerity on the grounds that it was necessary for them to "win back trust on the economy", which is convenient for them but unfortunately it seems to be true that most people do support the principle of austerity and would be unlikely to change their mind in the face of Labour arguing that it wasn't their fault and austerity wasn't necessary.
miktheword
Well-Known Member
Osborne's 'back to the state of 1930s' was deemed massively unpopular.
Labour were weak and probably because of what posters above said - they'd have been left with a dilemma that if their case against austerity and previous overspending was successfully argued, then how could they justify going ahead with more austerity?.
They never countered the idea in 4 and a half years. Miliband then gives a mea culpa for Labour's economic record, hoping the voters would trust his 'honesty' (why would they?!)
balls accepted austerity a couple of years ago, maybe hoping to do what Brown did pre '97 in accepting Tory spending plans even Clarke admits he wouldn't have stuck to.
Miliband then, a week before election states Labour didn't overspend. To the economically (understandably) illiterate, those who run with common sense 'household budget' analogies, this seemed contradictory and had them all over the place.
As has also been said, slagging Tory austerity whilst also saying we'll be tougher on benefits leaves Mr and Mrs low mortgage rate in Nuneaton thinking, 'why should I risk it?' with those who don't seem to believe it like the Tories do.
if they had hammered that point over 4 years, right wing press not withstanding, it may have gained resonance.
To show a graph would have been hard but to keep on saying in reply to 'mess labour left us with' they could have hammered repeatedly, 'lower debt than Thatcher / Major and fixed the roof' etc
It may have been in the end that whoever was in power at the time would have carried the can, despite Tories praising Ireland's celtic tiger and wanting less regulation.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Vast majority at Glastonbury voted Tory, apparently.
Doesn't surprise me, I always suspected as much.
Doesn't surprise me, I always suspected as much.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I don't know why people feel the need to. Is Guardian journalist Polly Torybe behind it?
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