Pedestrian jailed for causing death of cyclist

[_Russ_]

I don't think xenon wants cyclists to die, I think he(?) identifies with Auriol Grey because she is partially sighted, which is understandable. It's a very difficult case because both the victim and the protagonist are vulnerable in different ways. I repeat my earlier point that the real culprit is ultimately the crap infrastructure which places pedestrians and cyclists too close to heavy traffic for their safety.

I agree, but not sure how much store to put on the partially sighted aspect as that covers a huge range of visual acuity and the person was after all perfectly able to recognise the oncoming figure as a cyclist and not some amorphous blob

 

[Dogsauce]

Agree. But loads of pavements have been desingated dual use. It doesn't work well for cyclists or pedestrains as this case tragically shows.

It’s just a cheap shit solution that is worse for cyclists and pedestrians, especially along stretches with multiple joining roads that cyclists are then expected to stop and give way at, rather than have the priority they would if they stayed on the road. I’ve even seen one with a give way marking painted on for the driveway of every house. Councils get a (small) pot of money and ’do something’ without proper design or consultation. A few signposts is often all they do (councillors love signposts). Yet you still get car drivers bellowing out of the window at you for not using these ‘facilities’.

i would post a link to the ‘crap cycle lane of the month’ website but it appears to no longer exist, and conveniently they’ve now published a book collating their examples.

Edit: found a copy of the site someone made. Cycle Facility of the Month

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

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[AnnO'Neemus]

People are saying it’s obvious from the video or photo.

I read something about her gesticulating wildly and then looked at the video and my first reaction, and second and third, etc., after rewatching a few times, was that looked as though there might've been contact, she might even have pushed her, and I would've wanted to see footage from a different angle to conclusively rule out any contact.

 

[Dystopiary]

The judge said "her actions can't be explained by disability" which suggests they've not really explored how her disability affects her specifically, seems to be a blanket statement about disability in general. A proportion of cerebral palsy sufferers also have learning difficulties too, which I'm wondering might have an impact on her ability to show remorse etc, but it doesn't sound like they've factored that in. Potentially a very vulnerable person in prison, grim situation for all concerned really.

Yeah, and unless I've missed something the BBC seems to have omitted Grey's apparent "cognitive issues."

Today Judge Sean Enright, passing sentence, said he acknowledged the partial blindness, cognitive and mobility issues and cerebral palsy that the "childlike" Ms Grey suffered from.

Now none of us can know the full story here, but I don't see how this combination of issues she has could not make a difference to the case.

I'm absolutely not excusing her behaviour; she was out of order and her actions resulted in a woman's death as well as horrible consequences for the driver and her small child. But Gray's multiple disabilities and being "childlike" shouldn't be dismissed as part of the wider context.

Woman swears at cyclist who falls into road before fatal crash

 

[xenon]

I don't think xenon wants cyclists to die, I think he(?) identifies with Auriol Grey because she is partially sighted, which is understandable. It's a very difficult case because both the victim and the protagonist are vulnerable in different ways. I repeat my earlier point that the real culprit is ultimately the crap infrastructure which places pedestrians and cyclists too close to heavy traffic for their safety.

Exactly so. I heard about this on the radio initially, where no mention of contact with the cyclist was made. As I have personally experienced feeling vunrable / on edge when cyclists and here, escooters are on the pavement, it resonated. Posting in haste maybe, grabbed the first news story I saw.

I think your post on page 1 is probably what I would agree with in all fairness. Others have made good points too TBF re infrastructure and the vunribility of differnt road users. The rest is forum to and fro.

Plus the trying to link this with the Clarkson tabloid agenda and by implication that I'm some part of that, without having read what I've read or understood where I've coming from has pissed me off. I could change the title but A: I'm being stubbon and B: would feel a bit dishonest to do so now anyway.

 

[CNT36]

I thought that was terrible too. I mean, not staying till the emergency services arrived, wandering off to do her shopping while the woman lay dying in the road showed a complete lack of concern, let alone compassion.

Where are you getting this about her walking off to the shops? I read or had read to me at least 4 or 5 articles on this and not encountered this outside this thread. Google/ my going failed to help as well.

I agree, but not sure how much store to put on the partially sighted aspect as that covers a huge range of visual acuity and the person was after all perfectly able to recognise the oncoming figure as a cyclist and not some amorphous blob

At least one article goes with partially blind. I don't know if this is a bottle half/full empty situation or actually means something different.

 

[xenon]

Yes, exactly. I'm very nervous of using my bell because some people think it's aggressive when it's really not meant that way. I just want people to know I'm approaching!

I don't like it but we've got shared cycle paving in various places here in Bristol. The cyclists who piss me off are the ones who sweep by you on these going quickly. Bell ringers or "sorry just coming through." Are absolutely no bother. Just FWIW.

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree, but not sure how much store to put on the partially sighted aspect as that covers a huge range of visual acuity and the person was after all perfectly able to recognise the oncoming figure as a cyclist and not some amorphous blob

at what distance did this recognition occur?

 

[two sheds]

Any cyclists ringing their bell before coming past me get a 'thank you'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Re the canals / river lea: it's a real shame peds and cyclists just can't seem to arrange themselves.....it could be an idyllic model of co-usage in a very scenic setting. Yet, as it is, on busy-ish days it is as annoying using it as a ped as it is as a cyclist.

when you get cyclists on the canal ignoring the fact that pedestrians have priority, and ime cycling without any sort of due care for other towpath users - for example, cycling under bridges with no call or bell or whatnot to say they're coming. it can be somewhat disconcerting to find some lycra-clad turd cycling toward you under a narrow bridge and expecting you to give way when there's no way to give.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Unfortunately there are quite a lot of people who will both turn round and get mardy at you for ringing a bell or saying excuse me as you come up behind them and yet also tell you off if you don't because it's obvious that they have seen you already.

The best ones are those two walkers who ignore the bell the first three times until you’re really close then look around confused before they move to the opposite sides of the tiny path then move back to the same side.

Bonus points if dog involved

 

[CNT36]

The best ones are those two walkers who ignore the bell the first three times until you’re really close then look around confused before they move to the opposite sides of the tiny path then move back to the same side.

Bonus points if dog involved

Or you know might be hard of hearing. I usually assume people are deaf.
My favorite was a woman in a couple who had ago at me for not using my bell and hassling them. I had rung my bell on my approach then slowed down. I then hung a few metres back saying excuse me every fifteen seconds or so before slowly approaching after ringing my bell again when the path widened.

 

[Plumdaff]

I’ve previously experienced pedestrians, who were much bigger than me, being horribly intimidating to me when I’ve been carefully cycling on shared spaces. 3 years seems excessive compared to what drivers get but I’d also say drivers need face greater punishments.

And this:


Is so important. People who want to have a go at physically intimidating cyclists don’t go for 6’ men, at least not if they’re not in a car. They go for people they perceive as more vulnerable than them. It’s bullying.

Yes just a couple of weeks ago I had an older man deliberately step out and try to block me passing despite me cycling slowly, using my bell and pointing out the shared use sign right next to us.

 

[kabbes]

The best ones are those two walkers who ignore the bell the first three times until you’re really close then look around confused before they move to the opposite sides of the tiny path then move back to the same side.

Bonus points if dog involved

You mean the people who have priority on that path over you? Yes, how terrible of them to not rush out of your way, because your progress is so terribly important.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I got bitten by someone's dog once when using a canal tow path. Owner didn't give a crap.

On using bells - I have tried all sorts of things - bells, hooters, those things that just sound a single ding, and ask using my voice - and its not a case of people being deaf unless everyone is deaf. Sure the odd person might not be able hear, but in general pedestrians either ignore warnings or completely over-react. What is barely audible to some is threatening to others. And yet when cyclists use shared paths in Amsterdam none of these issues seem to arise. I stopped using canal tow paths just because of the aggression i got from walkers, despite me being the text book reasonable and considerate cyclist. I only use shared use paths now when there is no safe alternative but even when the off road cycle path is separate from the pedestrian path, there are people who walk along the cycling side and may be aggressive to cyclists - or deliberately act as an obstacle. They should make pedestrian paths out of the same stuff they use for cycle paths because people clearly prefer walking on cycle paths.

 

[kabbes]

As a pedestrian on a path, why on Earth should I give mind to somebody ringing a bell at me from behind? Not only do I have legal right of way, but I also have the moral right to just keep on walking. If you want to go faster than me, it’s your job to find a safe way past. I’m not going to intentionally block your path, but neither am I going to make some kind of special accommodation for you. Not even if you make noises at me. Wait until there is proper space and then pass safely.

And yes, you think it’s just you but it isn’t. When you’re walking, there’s a steady stream of cyclists and they all think they’re special. If you want to cycle somewhere without being interrupted by walkers, go cycling on a dedicated cycle trail.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

As a pedestrian on a path, why on Earth should I give mind to somebody ringing a bell at me from behind? Not only do I have legal right of way, but I also have the moral right to just keep on walking. If you want to go faster than me, it’s your job to find a safe way past. I’m not going to intentionally block your path, but neither am I going to make some kind of special accommodation for you. Not even if you make noises at me. Wait until there is proper space and then pass safely.

And yes, you think it’s just you but it isn’t. When you’re walking, there’s a steady stream of cyclists and they all think they’re special. If you want to cycle somewhere without being interrupted by walkers, go cycling on a dedicated cycle trail.

and this is why shared use does not work in the UK. Everyone is at war with everyone else.

Its difficult to use a dedicated cycle trail when you're cycling between your east end office and your central London office and just trying to avoid getting killed on the London roads.

 

[Dogsauce]

I had a dog have a go at me on a cycle track (not a shared use) and the owner apologising ‘oh, he doesn’t like bikes’. Well maybe don’t walk him on a dedicated cycle track then? This was next to a massive park with loads of paths suitable for dog exercising.

 

[kabbes]

and this is why shared use does not work in the UK. Everyone is at war with everyone else.

Quite. I don’t want a shared space. (And I am talking about shared spaces here, not me walking on a cycle path.). But where it is a properly shared space, the Highway Code is perfectly clear about who has priority.

 

[liquidindian]

As a pedestrian on a path, why on Earth should I give mind to somebody ringing a bell at me from behind? Not only do I have legal right of way, but I also have the moral right to just keep on walking. If you want to go faster than me, it’s your job to find a safe way past. I’m not going to intentionally block your path, but neither am I going to make some kind of special accommodation for you. Not even if you make noises at me. Wait until there is proper space and then pass safely.

This is the problem. The message I want to send is "hey, I'm behind you, don't get a massive fright when I pass" and the message received is, well, this.

 

[kabbes]

This is the problem. The message I want to send is "hey, I'm behind you, don't get a massive fright when I pass" and the message received is, well, this.

What happens, though, is a constant stream of people who think is friendly to ring bells at me so that I don’t get in their way. Well, it’s not friendly.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is the problem. The message I want to send is "hey, I'm behind you, don't get a massive fright when I pass" and the message received is, well, this.

The problem is not all cyclists use the same medium as you to send the same message. Like 'fuck off' carries a range of meanings from 'I don't believe you' to 'go away and die'

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Quite. I don’t want a shared space. (And I am talking about shared spaces here, not me walking on a cycle path.). But where it is a properly shared space, the Highway Code is perfectly clear about who has priority.

Bear in mind then that some cyclists will have the same unreasonable attitude as you

 

[Pickman's model]

Quite. I don’t want a shared space. (And I am talking about shared spaces here, not me walking on a cycle path.). But where it is a properly shared space, the Highway Code is perfectly clear about who has priority.

The highway code also says you shouldn't cycle without your hands on the handle bars. and rule 64 is unequivocal

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Quite. I don’t want a shared space. (And I am talking about shared spaces here, not me walking on a cycle path.). But where it is a properly shared space, the Highway Code is perfectly clear about who has priority.

Sure. But a little mutual cooperation is the only way such places can work. So as a pedestrian, you make space if you can for considerate cyclists who aren't being arrogant.

Ime as a pedestrian on canal paths, bikes can be annoying at busy times when there can be a lot of them. But really I'm only proper annoyed by cyclists who are going too fast or act like they have right of way. If you're going to cycle on shared paths, you have to be prepared to pootle (which is why I avoid them on my bike).

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

you make space if you can for considerate cyclists who aren't being arrogant.

Do we try to second guess the character of any other road user like this? Why would this be helpful? Just make space FULL STOP.

The only truly arrogant people in this country, transport wise, are the pro car lobby, and those who expect their massively damaging bad habits of driving everywhere to be subsidised by everyone else in terms of billions in tax revenue, in pollution, and in terms of injuries and lives lost. Then we all end up fighting over the scraps they leave us - tiny footpaths and inadequate cycle infrastructure.

 

[kabbes]

Bear in mind then that some cyclists will have the same unreasonable attitude as you

My attitude is that (a) the Highway Code means something; (b) if I want to overtake someone, that should be my problem, not theirs; and (c) vulnerable users of a path need protecting over those going faster on machines.

If you think that attitude is unreasonable then yes, I guess that does put you in a category with a lot of other cyclists.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do we try to second guess the character of any other road user like this? Why would this be helpful? Just make space FULL STOP

it's how I do it. I can judge pretty well from the speed they're going at, the way they let me know they're there, the way they slow down to pass, etc.

Pedestrians have priority and cyclists need to acknowledge that, primary by going very slowly when there are pedestrians around. In reality of course you have little choice but to make way for dickheads going too fast. But that's not me being considerate and I might inconvenience someone going too fast on purpose if I can. First and foremost the onus is on the cyclist to be considerate, stopping if necessary.

(As before I'm not judging the cyclist in this case here. She didn't do anything wrong.)

 

[Gromit]

I think if people just applied the "Dont be a dick" rule the world would be a better and safer place.

It's possible to cycle on pavements without being a dick. Causing no hinderence to other pavement users. Slowing right down when you must and patiently waiting for pedestrians to kindly make way.

It's possible to move aside to let cycles past.

Neither of these actions have a massive negative impact on your day really.

I speak as a cyclist who does sometimes mount the pavement at dangerous junctions or roads where I don't feel are safe. Roads where massive 4x4 swing around bends at speeds over lane divides with no concern over what may be around that corner etc etc.

It's more than possible to share if you aren't some cyclist dick who is constantly trying to beat their Strava time or pissed they may have to peddal back up to speed again after slowing.

Honestly I feel pavement ragers are dicks unless the cyclist is speeding like a loon with no regard for others.