Parents gather outside Birmingham school to protest against gay teacher

[treelover]

Salma Yaqoob, formerly of Respect, seemed to defend the parents on The Big Questions, maybe with a bit more nuance, the parents weren't consulted' anyone else note this.

 

[tim]

I didn't think anyone here has argued social conservatism is a uniquely Muslim phenomenon, have they? As I understand it, this is all taking place at a non-denominational state school, so I don't see state funded religious schools being an issue either (for the record, religious schools are an abomination). That film shows what would be a typical far right demo... that is, it would be typical if those participating weren't predominantly brown/Muslim. If those on "the left" can't even call to smash all bigotry, whatever the religious, cultural or ethnic background of the bigots involved, then the wider far right (e.g Yaxley-Lennon types) will continue to make ground.

Socially Conservative Christians in England (or at least Roman Catholics and Anglicans) have the choice to send their children to schools run by their own faith, this is not an option for Muslims as there are only 13 Muslim primary schools in the state sector. That does make the state funding of religious schools an issue as some communities are clearly treated preferentially.

Also a school that is inept enough to piss off 600 parents, not all of whom can be dismissed as "bigots" clearly does have a problem.

PRIMARY SCHOOLS

Type of school Total schools Percentage of total
No religious character 10,609 63.2
Church of England 4,377 26.1
Roman Catholic 1,645 9.8
Methodist 25 0.1
Other 72 0.4
Jewish 36 0.2
Muslim 13 0.1
Sikh 5 –
Hindu 4

 

[Sue]

The response in recent years has been to create more denominational schools in different flavours to try and redress this imbalance. A much better way of dealing with it would be abolishing denominational schools in general.

 

[SpookyFrank]

That does make the state funding of religious schools an issue as some communities are clearly treated preferentially.

Religious people in general are given preferential treatment over non-religious people. I don't really give a shit about any one religion getting more or less than their fair share of schools. If they've got more than zero they've got too many.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Salma Yaqoob, formerly of Respect, seemed to defend the parents on The Big Questions, maybe with a bit more nuance, the parents weren't consulted' anyone else note this.

Five'll get you ten these same parents don't give a shit about not being consulted on any other aspect of the curriculum.

 

[tim]

Basically this.

Those who want a secular society are always in a battle against those who would wish to impose their religious sensibilities upon the rest of us, which is what these protesters are doing, whether they think they are doing it or not. There is a muddle here in some places.

I'm not that keen on anyone who wants to impose their views on anyone. You seem to want to impose your supposedly "secular" views on those around you, and I'm not convinced that l want them imposed on me. Why should I trust you and your values than anyone else peddling a set of beliefs that I find unpalatable.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Serge Forward]

Cultural relativism at its worst.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Can you impose secularism on people or is it just a condition where nothing is being imposed at all? The alternatives to secularism definitely seem to involve a lot more things being imposed on a lot more people.

 

[Reno]

'm not that keen on anyone who wants to impose their views on anyone. You seem to want to impose your supposedly "secular" views on those around you, and I'm not convinced that l want them imposed on me. Why should I trust you and your values than anyone else peddling a set of beliefs that I find unpalatable.

Don't impose views on religion, it should have no place in a modern class room. Not teaching religion is not imposing secular views, it's just an absence of imposing religious views.

 

[tim]

Religious people in general are given preferential treatment over non-religious people. I don't really give a shit about any one religion getting more or less than their fair share of schools. If they've got more than zero they've got too many.

I don't see many ways that Muslims are treated preferentially in our society, look beyond schools and consider the statistics on Islamophobic attacks. The ongoing issues of Antisemitism in the Labour Party reflect the fact that British Jews don't exactly get an easy ride, either.

Have you had the shit beaten out of you for daring to be secular?

 

[SpookyFrank]

If I was part of a minority religious group I'm not sure I'd be so keen to argue for religious doctrines deciding what goes in the school curriculum, for the simple reason that it wouldn't be the doctrines of my religion that would get the casting vote. It's just bad game theory, you're handing the other lot a win over your lot.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I don't see many ways that Muslims are treated preferentially in our society

Is that what I said? It's not is it?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Have you had the shit beaten out of you for daring to be secular?

I have the good fortune not to have been raised by a religious family, and in a secular-ish society. Others aren't so lucky, and do face real consequences for giving up on the religion they're expected to belong to.

I'm not 'secular' anyway. I'm just a person.

 

[Reno]

I don't see many ways that Muslims are treated preferentially in our society, look beyond schools and consider the statistics on Islamophobic attacks. The ongoing issues of Antisemitism in the Labour Party reflect the fact that British Jews don't exactly get an easy ride, either.

Have you had the shit beaten out of you for daring to be secular?

I've had the shit beaten out for being gay because me being gay offended a bunch of religions people. I bet you they would see that as an evil of secularism that I'm being granted to freedom to exist as a gay man.

 

[tim]

Can you impose secularism on people or is it just a condition where nothing is being imposed at all? The alternatives to secularism definitely seem to involve a lot more things being imposed on a lot more people.

I wouldn't trust anyone who makes the following comment not to impose their norms if put in a position to take decisions over other people's lives.

Five'll get you ten these same parents don't give a shit about not being consulted on any other aspect of the curriculum.

You clearly have contempt for these parents otherwise you wouldn't assume they have no issues with the curriculum other than this. Do you distain them just because of their faith? Does social class or ethnicity also play a part?

On the broader level I look at the approach taken by the French state to "secularisation" banning the hijab and kippah. Forcing people to conform to the state dictated norms and see little to envy.

 

[tim]

Is that what I said? It's not is it?

You said:

Religious people in general are given preferential treatment over non-religious people

Are you saying that doesn't include religious Muslims? Are there any other faith groups that you'd exclude?

 

[Serge Forward]

I also have contempt for these parents

 

[tim]

I've had the shit beaten out for being gay because me being gay offended a bunch of religions people. I bet you they would see that as an evil of secularism that I'm being granted to freedom to exist as a gay man.

They might do, but other bigots use "secularism" as an excuse to attack religious minorities Geert Wilders has built a political career out of it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You said:

Religious people in general are given preferential treatment over non-religious people

Are you saying that doesn't include religious Muslims? Are there any other faith groups that you'd exclude?

Context. We're talking about schools. Muslim kids will get preferential access to Christian schools as well as muslim schools. Religious schools aren't allowed to say 'no Jews' or whatever but they can preferentially accept children 'of faith' before faithless ones.

Why would a non christian parent send their kid to a christian school? Well, from your own data we see that supply outstrips demand there, only 16% of the population is CofE, but 26% of the schools. Also selective intake provides religious chools with fun opporunities to gerrymander their student bodies and thus their exam results, so on paper a christian school may be better than the local faithless alternative. Assuming there is an alternative. If you live in a little village somewhere, maybe there's one school your kid can physically get to. If it happens to be a jesus school, well either pretend your kid loves jesus or start saving up for bus fares.

 

[tim]

I also have contempt for these parents

All 350/600 of them, even though you don't actually know them? Why?

 

[SpookyFrank]

I wouldn't trust anyone who makes the following comment not to impose their norms if put in a position to take decisions over other people's lives.

I'm not likely to be in any such position any time soon don't worry.

I don't really know what your point is tbh. It seems to just be that someone not liking bigotry or dogma makes them a dogmatic bigot. If so, you're an idiot. If not, well what actually is your point?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can you impose secularism on people or is it just a condition where nothing is being imposed at all? The alternatives to secularism definitely seem to involve a lot more things being imposed on a lot more people.

And let's be clear here. This isn't a school 'promoting homosexuality' or any of that rubbish. These protests are straight out of the Thatcher Clause 28 school of bigotry, whereby to even suggest that there is nothing wrong with being gay, to a classroom of kids that is likely to include at least a couple of gay kids or kids who will grow up to be gay, is 'promoting homosexuality' and somehow an affront to the religious beliefs of homophobes. Some might think that the promotion of tolerance and acceptance of diversity, which is all this is, is simply showing a responsible duty of care for group of kids that is going to include such diversity.

And yes, there is a clash here between a group of homophobes and a school that wishes to teach kids about diversity and respect. That group of homophobes shows no respect for gay people. Rather, they try to justify their homophobia with religion, and impose their homophobia on the school dressed up in religious clothing and outrage. But anyway, I'm pretty happy to say that my norm, my dogma, my ideology, that there is nothing wrong with being gay is the one that should prevail here. It is a betrayal of gay people - of gay kids in this case - to say any different.

 

[treelover]

I'm not that keen on anyone who wants to impose their views on anyone. You seem to want to impose your supposedly "secular" views on those around you, and I'm not convinced that l want them imposed on me. Why should I trust you and your values than anyone else peddling a set of beliefs that I find unpalatable.

Were you in Respect Tim?

 

[Serge Forward]

All 350/600 of them, even though you don't actually know them? Why?

Well, they may well be perfectly nice people in many other ways, but I wouldn't trust any of them to be supportive of their kids if they were not 100% hetero, nor any of the other kids at that school... so yeah, fuck 'em. Bigoted wankers.

 

[Southlondon]

I wouldn't trust anyone who makes the following comment not to impose their norms if put in a position to take decisions over other people's lives.




You clearly have contempt for these parents otherwise you wouldn't assume they have no issues with the curriculum other than this. Do you distain them just because of their faith? Does social class or ethnicity also play a part?

On the broader level I look at the approach taken by the French state to "secularisation" banning the hijab and kippah. Forcing people to conform to the state dictated norms and see little to envy.

They might do, but other bigots use "secularism" as an excuse to attack religious minorities Geert Wilders has built a political career out of it.

I couldn’t care a less what superstitions people have or what they choose to worship, but I strongly object when people want to impose their religious morals on me or or anyone else. If a religion thinks being gay is intrinsically wrong or in some way inferior to being straight, then I would suggest they should not be allowed to influence children, in the same way that I would not want to see people who believe certain races are superior to others being allowed any input into a schools curriculum. All schools should be secular, and people should stop pandering to these minority’s amongst us. These parents should be prosecuted for not ensuring their kids attend school period

 

[SpookyFrank]

And let's be clear here. This isn't a school 'promoting homosexuality' or any of that rubbish. These protests are straight out of the Thatcher Clause 28 school of bigotry, whereby to even suggest that there is nothing wrong with being gay, to a classroom of kids that is likely to include at least a couple of gay kids or kids who will grow up to be gay, is 'promoting homosexuality' and somehow an affront to the religious beliefs of homophobes. Some might think that the promotion of tolerance and acceptance of diversity, which is all this is, is simply showing a responsible duty of care for group of kids that is going to include such diversity.

And yes, there is a clash here between a group of homophobes and a school that wishes to teach kids about diversity and respect. That group of homophobes shows no respect for gay people. Rather, they try to justify their homophobia with religion, and impose their homophobia on the school dressed up in religious clothing and outrage. But anyway, I'm pretty happy to say that my norm, my dogma, my ideology, that there is nothing wrong with being gay is the one that should prevail here. It is a betrayal of gay people - of gay kids in this case - to say any different.

Echoes of the current situation in Russia too, where the official line is that you can be gay as long as you don't corrupt the kids with your gayness but the real situation on the ground is routine, organised, state-sanctioned homophobic violence.

 

[Reno]

They might do, but other bigots use "secularism" as an excuse to attack religious minorities Geert Wilders has built a political career out of it.

You asked about "having the shit beaten out of you" for who you are. Unpalatable as I may find his opinions, I'm not aware Geert Wilders has made a career out of literally beating the shit out of Muslims. I don't need a lecture about that there being populist politicians who exploit Islamophobia, in repose to my answer to your question.

Islamophobes who beat up Muslims don't justify their actions with "they are threatening our secular values". Usually they are yobs who just need another reason to beat someone up. Most Muslims who get assaulted or murdered for their beliefs, get attacked by people of a different religion, sometimes even by fundamentalist Muslims who interpret the Koran differently.

Your narrative of self-identified secular mobs beating up Muslims is a fantasy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Echoes of the current situation in Russia too, where the official line is that you can be gay as long as you don't corrupt the kids with your gayness but the real situation on the ground is routine, organised, state-sanctioned homophobic violence.

We're not so far historically from where Russia is now. Clause 28 was only repealed in 2003. And Russia shows how it is possible to go backwards on these matters as well as forwards. Allowing religious bigotry to trump gay rights would be a step backwards.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wouldn't trust anyone who makes the following comment not to impose their norms if put in a position to take decisions over other people's lives.




You clearly have contempt for these parents otherwise you wouldn't assume they have no issues with the curriculum other than this. Do you distain them just because of their faith? Does social class or ethnicity also play a part?

On the broader level I look at the approach taken by the French state to "secularisation" banning the hijab and kippah. Forcing people to conform to the state dictated norms and see little to envy.

Pretty shameful of you to try to play the race card in this.

 

[Serge Forward]

Were you in Respect Tim?

The old "don't mention LGBT stuff, it's racist" party?