Parents gather outside Birmingham school to protest against gay teacher

[tim]

Were you in Respect Tim?

Far too Authoritarian for me. And anyway I had some previous experience of just how unpleasant Galloway could be.

 

[tim]

You asked about "having the shit beaten out of you" for who you are. Unpalatable as I may find his opinions, I'm not aware Geert Wilders has made a career out of literally beating the shit out of Muslims. I don't need a lecture about that there being populist politicians who exploit Islamophobia, in repose to my answer to your question.

Islamophobes who beat up Muslims don't justify their actions with "they are threatening our secular values". Usually they are yobs who just need another reason to beat someone up. Most Muslims who get assaulted or murdered for their beliefs, get attacked by people of a different religion, sometimes even by fundamentalist Mu

slims who interpret the Koran differently.

Your narrative of self-identified secular mobs beating up Muslims is a fantasy.

Wilders like politicians in France use "secularism" as a dog-whistle garner racist support. I doubt that Wilders gets his hands and feet too bloody, but he's happy to court the votes of those who are less inhibited.

 

[tim]

We're not so far historically from where Russia is now. Clause 28 was only repealed in 2003. And Russia shows how it is possible to go backwards on these matters as well as forwards. Allowing religious bigotry to trump gay rights would be a step backwards.

Except parents being unhappy about the sex education curriculum in primary schools isn't a particularly religious issue, is it? If these had been parents in middle-class conservative white catchment area this would not have created this level of vitriol

 

[SpookyFrank]

Wilders like politicians in France use "secularism" as a dog-whistle garner racist support.

Probably better not to keep reinforcing the association of secularism with bigotry then.

Racists, and I know this is hard to believe, are sometimes less than honest in their use of language. Sometimes they may claim to be motivated by one thing while actually being motivated by something else, for example not liking a certain group of people.

 

[tim]

Islamophobes who beat up Muslims don't justify their actions with "they are threatening our secular values". Usually they are yobs who just need another reason to beat someone up. Most Muslims who get assaulted or murdered for their beliefs, get attacked by people of a different religion, sometimes even by fundamentalist Muslims who interpret the Koran differently.

You live in Germany. Whatever other values they espoused, the National Socialists imposed an overtly secular regime. Not all those running the camps were "yobs", it didn't stop them murdering Jews, gays and other minorities for the greater good.

The Stalinists weren't to keen on minorities, either.

 

[SpookyFrank]

If these had been parents in middle-class conservative white catchment area this would not have created this level of vitriol

If a bunch of white people from the suburbs started complaining about how a teacher was telling their kids stuff that contradicted the quran I think the intial reaction would be one of sheer bewilderment tbh.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You live in Germany. Whatever other values they espoused, the National Socialists imposed an overtly secular regime. Not all those running the camps were "yobs", it didn't stop them murdering Jews, gays and other minorities for the greater good.

The Stalinists weren't to keen on minorities, either.

You're a fucking idiot, I'm done with you.

 

[Reno]

You live in Germany. Whatever other values they espoused, the National Socialists imposed an overtly secular regime. Not all those running the camps were "yobs", it didn't stop them murdering Jews, gays and other minorities for the greater good.

The Stalinists weren't to keen on minorities, either.

Kindly go fuck yourself !

 

[Puddy_Tat]

You live in Germany. Whatever other values they espoused, the National Socialists imposed an overtly secular regime. Not all those running the camps were "yobs", it didn't stop them murdering Jews, gays and other minorities for the greater good.

 

[zahir]

I'm not that keen on anyone who wants to impose their views on anyone. You seem to want to impose your supposedly "secular" views on those around you, and I'm not convinced that l want them imposed on me. Why should I trust you and your values than anyone else peddling a set of beliefs that I find unpalatable.

A central part of what is happening in Birmingham is one group of Muslim parents trying to impose their views on other Muslim parents. The numbers involved seem to be disputed and I’m really not sure if they’re speaking for the majority of parents or not. Either way there is still a large group of parents choosing not to take their children out of school for the protests. You appear to be supporting the rights of religiously and socially conservative Muslims over the rights of the more secular minded. Muslims aren’t one homogenous group who all share the same views any more than Christians or Jews are.

 

[zahir]

There is never a reason for bigotry at the school gates | Kenan Malik

I was struck by this quote from a 2016 Guardian report that Kenan Malik links to in his article. The obvious point is that there are fault lines in families and communities. The religiously conservative aren’t speaking for everyone.

The parent of a 10-year-old admitted her views differed from her husband’s: “My husband is a strict Muslim and my son asked him about the difference between what the school says and our religion. He did not give him a good reply. My reply was that God has created us and he is the only one who can judge us. I have told my son that it wouldn’t matter if he came home to me and said he was gay, you are my son and I will love you no matter what.”

 

[tim]

If a bunch of white people from the suburbs started complaining about how a teacher was telling their kids stuff that contradicted the quran I think the intial reaction would be one of sheer bewilderment tbh.

Would you be less bewildered by this, a comment, which doesn't mention the Quran from the woman who led the protest? Do you really think you wouldn't here it in the white suburbs? If not why all the focus on the religious aspect?

The issue was first raised by Fatima Shah, who pulled her 10-year-old daughter out of the school, saying children were too young to be learning about same-sex marriages and LGBT rights in the classroom.

“We are not a bunch of homophobic mothers,” she said. “We just feel that some of these lessons are inappropriate. Some of the themes being discussed are very adult and complex and the children are getting confused.

Muslims are a very easy target but, but frothing on about this all being about religion/Islamic bigotry ignores the fact that such views are held in plenty of other sections of society

Birmingham school stops LGBT lessons after parents protest

 

[8ball]

“We are not a bunch of homophobic mothers,” she said. “We just feel that some of these lessons are inappropriate. Some of the themes being discussed are very adult and complex and the children are getting confused.

Muslims are a very easy target but, but frothing on about this all being about religion/Islamic bigotry ignores the fact that such views are held in plenty of other sections of society

It's hard to judge without seeing what particular parts of this programme the parents are objecting to.
The groups that are making the noise about this don't seem all that forthcoming with examples.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Except parents being unhappy about the sex education curriculum in primary schools isn't a particularly religious issue, is it? If these had been parents in middle-class conservative white catchment area this would not have created this level of vitriol

If their objection had centred on the mentioning of diversity and same-sex relationships, it would have attracted exactly the same amount of vitriol from me. Take your hypocrisy hunting elsewhere. It doesn't work here.

 

[zahir]

BBC Big Questions had a discussion on this from Birmingham today (starting at 32 minutes in).

BBC iPlayer - The Big Questions - Series 12: Episode 10

 

[tim]

There is never a reason for bigotry at the school gates | Kenan Malik

I was struck by this quote from a 2016 Guardian report that Kenan Malik links to in his article. The obvious point is that there are fault lines in families and communities. The religiously conservative aren’t speaking for everyone.

I'm sure parents are divided, but the fact that it's hundreds of parents involved rather than a couple of dozen indicates that the school has not managed this well. I don't buy the idea that these parents are all crazy bigots. The line being pushed by some here.


On the topic of odd belief systems Kenan Malik is one of those former Revolutionary Communists who became fervent spiking Libertarians and upset George Monbiot.

RCP/Spiked/IoI

 

[8ball]

I'm sure parents are divided, but the fact that it's hundreds of parents involved rather than a couple of dozen indicates that the school has not managed this well. I don't buy the idea that these parents are all crazy bigots.

There was nothing more than bigotry evident from that TV debate, but it's fair to say that not all parents from the school were there.

 

[zahir]

There was nothing more than bigotry evident from that TV debate, but it's fair to say that not all parents from the school were there.

I think at this point it may be very hard for parents who don’t support the protests to come out and say anything in public.

 

[8ball]

I think at this point it may be very hard for parents who don’t support the protests to come out and say anything in public.

Yeah, what I meant was that I was hoping to hear something about the reasons for their objections that wasn't grounded in bigotry (since that was the claim made on the show).

 

[zahir]

It was a bit of a frustrating debate really. Here’s the opinion of the woman who spoke at the start.

 

[8ball]

It was a bit of a frustrating debate really. Here’s the opinion of the woman who spoke at the start.

Having watched it, she's bang on the money.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Salma Yaqoob, formerly of Respect, seemed to defend the parents on The Big Questions, maybe with a bit more nuance, the parents weren't consulted' anyone else note this.

I just watched it and found that pretty disappointing from her tbh. You’d have to be seriously deluded to not realise that it was a blatantly homophobic campaign and ‘consultation’ was only, at best, a side issue.

 

[treelover]

Except parents being unhappy about the sex education curriculum in primary schools isn't a particularly religious issue, is it? If these had been parents in middle-class conservative white catchment area this would not have created this level of vitriol

The cake makers certainly unleashed serious twitter anger

 

[tim]

The cake makers certainly unleashed serious twitter anger

The were Ulster Protestants, so even more loathed than Muslims.

 

[treelover]

Birmingham primary school in LGBT row cleared by watchdog

Inspectors said there was a “small, vocal minority” of parents who believed the school’s equalities curriculum focused disproportionately on LGBT issues and was not taught in an age-appropriate way, but they found no evidence to support this.

They said their inquiries revealed that most Parkfield parents supported the curriculum and understood the school was helping their child to play a positive role in modern British society.

Well,it does like it is an element of the parents, maybe the numbers were boosted by outsiders.

 

[zahir]

This is the relevant part of the Ofsted letter. https://files.api.ofsted.gov.uk/v1/file/50062382

Almost all of the parents who completed Ofsted’s questionnaire, Parent View, and who spoke with inspectors share the school’s vision and are happy with the quality of education the school provides. You and your staff have forged positive links with parents. You have done this by inviting parents to assemblies and workshops and to observe lessons. You have also put on classes for parents that include childcare, information technology and English for speakers of other languages. The special educational needs coordinator (SENCo) and the early years leader, for example, engage positively with parents to support pupils’ learning. The education, health and care plan process and annual reviews help to make sure that pupils with SEND receive the right support at the right times and do well. The SENCo works effectively with a wide range of health and care agencies to make sure that children at Parkfield are well supported.

The majority of parents understand how the school helps their children to play a positive role in modern British society by developing their appreciation of British values. However, a very small, but vocal, minority of parents are not clear about the school’s vision, policies and practice. This group of parents feel that staff do not sufficiently listen to their concerns. Their view is that the PSHE education and equalities curriculum focuses disproportionately on lesbian, gay and bisexual issues and that this work is not taught in an age-appropriate manner. Inspectors found no evidence that this is the case.

 

[zahir]

This thread is worth reading (the Guardian headline he was reacting to is inaccurate - the school says that it hasn’t stopped the lessons).

 

[Theisticle]

Turns out most parents actually support the curriculum

 

[tim]

Well,it does like it is an element of the parents, maybe the numbers were boosted by outsiders.

Clearly, it wasn't outsiders who took several hundred kids out of school for the day. I think that's a sudden outbreak of faith in the competence of OFSTED or any other state regulator would be unwarranted.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

It's hard to judge without seeing what particular parts of this programme the parents are objecting to.

And hard to judge without having some training and experience as a teacher or other educator.
It must be a nightmare being a teacher with parents judging by their own educational experience which is 25 years out of date.

When I was at school gay people didn’t exist, so why would they get mentioned now?