You think they all think the same as him on Iraq? I think they have differing ideas. And i think more of them would prefer to hear what people like durruti or streathamite or dennisr has to say than some hysterical clown who thinks he's their saviour.
Paramilitary Style Group Protests In Luton
- Thread starter greenman
- Start date
You think they all think the same as him on Iraq? I think they have differing ideas. And i think more of them would prefer to hear what people like durruti or streathamite or dennisr has to say than some hysterical clown who thinks he's their saviour.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Well, I know a few 'bold single young muslim men' from the area - and they saw the original provocation as idiocy.
Yep, of course we can all understand the anger at what is going on and can understand a layer of such folk moving towards seperatist reigious fundamentalism in reaction to such imperial horrors. Does not mean we should support poor tactics or the utterly self-defeating stratagies.
This bit is not really aimed at you Dwyr, more at the provocateur on this thread - i would argue the job of folk who would claim to be anti-imperialist is to provide an alternative to the understandable reaction of young muslims (and all working people) - not to cheerlead under the banner of fantasy 'anti-imperialism'
Especially not from the safety of the internet
Pretty much, yes. I'm certain that every (unbribed) Muslim in the world opposed the invasion. Why wouldn't they?
All I can say is, big up the moderates who confronted the hardliners, and hope these fundie muslims and racist supremacists alike burn in hell.
dennisr
the acceptable face
I don't think anyone - even most on urban care what any of us think much!
The main thing is that lots of folk who have been swayed by press buildup in the wake of the original provocation have heard - even in the distorte way that same press are doing it - what most Luton muslims think on the matter.
That will do more to avoid building further reaction from the type of idiots who were on the second provocation. I don't think that is a bad thing.
I'd have to question that phil, yes the vast the majority of Muslims, like most of us were against the war and have protested against it loudly since the beginning. It is this one particular group and their actions that people have problems with including Muslims have an issue with.
I and two Asian friends (non-Muslims) argued this exact point after the event with a white friend of ours who backed them. He argued like some on here they had a right to do what they were doing and were totally justified. We had to point out to him how the consequences of that action would play out. Our greatest fears have been since realized, this has become a fantastic potential recruiting tool for the BNP. Yes I know they probably did not intend to act as recruiting sergeants for Griffin but unfortunately this has happened.
I gain no comfort whatsoever in being proved right, in fact I wish I had been proved wrong but you have to understand that having experienced the sharp end of racism and having memories of the NF marching through my area when I was a kid my feelings on this like many other ethnic minorities regardless of religion are different from yours.
Not having a go at you personally I just wish to explain my position.
I'm never the best at putting my thoughts into writing so I'm including this column by a local Muslim which might explain why Muslims would oppose the actions of Anjem Chaudhry and his group.
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Luton-louts-minority/article-774991-detail/article.html
The writer is a cleric and one of the leaders of this organization http://www.bmcs.org.uk/
Interesting. I can certainly understand why Muslims would want to avoid offending people. But surely the decision not to protest also carries consequences? I'm not referring to this particular group, or this particular protest, but I think it is important that British Muslims do register their opposition to the war publicly. Yes they'll be called "traitors" by the BNP, but that would happen anyway.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
there's a time and a place to protest these fools hold nasty views and created a shitstorm that fell on other people.
nice.
probably was there plan they want Muslims to be afraid of the kuffar bit like some lefties who voted for Maggie the longer torys
in power more chance of a revolution
nice.
probably was there plan they want Muslims to be afraid of the kuffar bit like some lefties who voted for Maggie the longer torys
in power more chance of a revolutionI suspect that's partly down to some elements of both the right and the left having a very fixed set of ideas about the union flag which may very well be "spot-on" in terms of a particular analysis of the union flags' meaning, but have little to do with the everyday feelings and ideas people might attach to it.
I mean, I see the flag in its' bloody historical context, but that's not all it's about.
And yes, I'm well aware of what a wishy-washy "typical bloody sociologist" sentiment that is.
All flags are pretty blood stained. But I don't see why I shouldn't be entitled to feel British today. I wouldn't fly a flag personally as tbh I find them a little tacky. But I'm not at all offended by them.
But thats doesnt mean they all agree with dylans particularly amusing world view, does it?
And there will be lot of differing views for and against the invasion amongst muslims.
The idea that all muslims all think exactly the same is just not true.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The same (that it's an "imperialist imposition) can be said of "modern" (i.e. post-Ottoman) Iraq.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Same here. What offends me is the ideological use (usually exclusionary) to which the symbol gets put.
I would support and encourage Muslims to show their opposition to the war Phil I stated that in my first sentence. I marched and attended protests, I would be a hypocrite to suggest otherwise. It's this group and their tactics which I oppose as they are counter-productive and serve to increase BNP support IMO.
The Muslim community and I, would and have been called a lot worse than 'traitors' by the BNP regardless of our views on the war. You might have seen Griffin's criticism of the VC awarded to Johnson Beharry for example.
No there won't. You won't find any Muslim who supports it. In fact it is arguable that anyone who supports infidel military intervention in the Dar-al-Islam is not a Muslim by definition.
Of course, if it's true of Kuwait than it must also be true of Iraq. The point is that the British lopped off Kuwait from the rest of Iraq and kept it for themselves when they discovered oil there. Then after "independence" they just ran it through surrogates. So Streathamite's bleating about Kuwaiti self-determination display a breathtaking degree of historical ignorance.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Jonti, it might be a good idea to actually read your links before you post them up. Had you done so, you'd have seen that this link shows massive opposition to the invasion even among Kuwaitis, exactly as I said.
Perhaps in future you should stick to poetry?
"At the root of this sentiment is a deep aversion to Western military action against fellow Muslims -- a norm that Kuwaitis share with others in the region who experienced a lengthy colonial past. Earlier evidence of this aversion can be found in Gallup's post-9/11 polling. When interviewed in late 2001, 60% of Kuwait's citizens described the ongoing U.S. military action in Afghanistan as unjustifiable -- as did 79% of Kuwait's expatriate residents. A striking result of the 2001 polling in Kuwait was the finding that those condemning the U.S. military response actually outnumbered those who felt the 9/11 attacks themselves were morally unjustifiable (Kuwaiti citizens at 31%, expats at 44%). However, condemnation of the 9/11 attacks has since increased dramatically among both groups (to 72% and 63%, respectively).
How do Kuwaitis assess current developments in Iraq? Regardless of their citizenship status, Kuwait's residents believe that Iraq is currently in worse shape than it was prior to the 2003 Coalition invasion. More specifically, roughly two-thirds of both Kuwait's citizenry (66%) and its Arab expat population (73%) say they believe the Coalition invasion of Iraq has thus far done that country "more harm than good," while only about 1 in 10 thinks the opposite is the case (citizens at 10%, expats at 8%)."
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I defy you to find a British Muslim who isn't totally opposed to British involvement in Iraq.
The only tragedy of the homecoming demonstration was that it was only a tiny group of Islamists. Where was the wider anti war movement? Why isn't every fucking military parade heckled by everyone
That a tiny group with nasty politics did it is a shame, It would have been great if a secular group had done it, but it was what it was. It was still a legitimate target for an anti war protest. If a tiny group of Trots had demonstrated it would have been dismissed with a shrug. It was precisely because the demonstrators were British Muslim, fanatics at that, that there has been this "outrage." That, is racism.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
lol @ phildwyer
who should read what he writes himself!
You decide, gentle reader, you decide ...
who should read what he writes himself!
A fool, or a deliberate liar?
You decide, gentle reader, you decide ...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Well, "may serve to increase BNP support" would probably be more accurate, because it depends how the media have represented (and continue to represent) the story to the public, doesn't it?
They and their ilk have called Jews the same names for a 100 years, blacks the same names for 60 years. They're racist scum, you can't expect any better, and no-one should treat them otherwise.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
lol @ phildwyer
who should read what he writes himself!
A fool, or a deliberate liar?
You decide, gentle reader, you decide ...
Ah, but he's using an argument that the act of criticism, in the tenets of Islam, anathematise any Muslim whose opinion is outside that which is considered orthodox, so if orthodox opinion is that "no Muslim would support it", then any Muslim who supports it....
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not really. Kuwait is only about 10 years younger than Iraq, which makes Kuwait no more or less a valid state entity than Iraq, given that both were governed by surrogates up until the Saddam revolution (and even then Saddam could be argued to have been a surrogate himself up until he supposedly misinterpreted the US ambassador and thought he'd been given authorisation to invade Kuwait (to punish them for side-boring into Iraqi oilfields, supposedly).
'may serve' yes absolutely right but I have read comments elsewhere where this incident and others like it have prompted people to declare their intentions to vote BNP. I also noticed the immediate reaction it caused on the day from those in the vicinity which was not prompted by the media.
I wouldn't say it completely depends on the media, I doubt whether the Muslims condemning this in Luton or the Bristolian one I posted or even my own views were due to reporting.
'may depend on how the media have represented' would probably be more accurate
Ah, but he's using an argument that the act of criticism, in the tenets of Islam, anathematise any Muslim whose opinion is outside that which is considered orthodox, so if orthodox opinion is that "no Muslim would support it", then any Muslim who supports it....
While we're talking tenets of Islam, let me post the last paragraph of the article I posted:
'1,400 years ago, the Prophet Muhammad warned about the advent of extremists. He said: "Towards the last days, a people will emerge who will be young in age and have foolish ideas. They will speak with the best speech, but their faith will not go past below their throats (that their hearts will be devoid of faith). They will shoot out from the Religion just as the arrow shoots out from a hunted game."
For all our sakes, let us recognise those people for what they are.'
http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Luton-louts-minority/article-774991-detail/article.html
Was thinking about this point yesterday and a couple of questions came up.
What are your thoughts on the active participation of the Iraqi Kurds in the 2003 invasion and the approval from other groups oppressed under Saddam such as the Marsh Arabs and the wider Shia diaspora of the end of his regime?
Secondly do you really think that as non-Muslims that we can define and dismiss those who did support 'infidel' intervention as un-Islamic?
lol, do you live anywhere near a muslim area? cos you are talking shite! yet more laughable stereotyping of 'muslims' ..
tbh it is akin to racism this sterotyping you and dylan come out with
you may be correct about the views of doctrinaire muslims .. but what i hate, what i think is outragrous, what i think is akin to racism is this idea that all 'muslims' are one dimensional and only understandable, only identifiable by their relegion .. and of course when you say 'muslims' you mean in the widest possible sense NOT just those who are fundy or doctrinaire .. it is disgusting stereotyping which if said of 'the Jew' or 'Blacks' or 'Homosexuals' would be quite rightly be given short shrift and condemned for its prejudice it shallowness and its feebleness
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
During the lead up and the invasion of Iraq in 2003, within the small charitable organisation I was working at, the only person who supported the invasion was a British Muslim whose family were from Iraq. He said something like, "it is easy for you all to go on about western imperialism and oil grab when you have not had to live in a dictatorship and seen what that dictatorship will do to its own people to survive." That made me think about my views on the matter..
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