Paramilitary Style Group Protests In Luton

[dylans]

Also note Treelover's use of the word 'Comrade', not as it should be meant but in the timeworn style of the sneering trade union bureaucrat/Labour witch-hunter

Yup. I know the type. I can imagine him spitting the words out in contempt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I suspect that in reality it is you who are impotent. Am I right?

As ever, you're quite wrong.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Er, shouldn't I be? the M/S is not an organ of the SWP, etc

its certainly lazy journalism though...

I think that perhaps it's not so much laziness as an attempt to present a unitary version of events, so that if the nationals pick up on it there won't be loads of partisan conflicting versions around.

 

[ViolentPanda]

'Sfunny how that's so many people's favourite phrase! it's practically a clarion call....

...You know, I hadn't noticed before, but you're right, it is!!

 

[tbaldwin]

How does that happen? It is a serious question although those people could reflect that many of their favourite players would be kicked out if the filth had their way.

And as for if they ever need a hospital...

It is a serious question and an important one.
I think what sways people is when you engage with what they say. You need to appeal to people on the basis of their self interest. Some people will read or hear about something that suggests to them the problem is foreigners etc and most newspapers appeal to peoples sense of injustice. The way the mail or sun feeds peoples sense of injustice can be to say that oh look at that group getting more than they should etc.....But look at the group that really gets more than they should in society, is it the refugees, the occasional person on the sick who aint really that sick or is it the super rich....The people who have wealth handed down to them from generation to generation.

Most people who look towards organsations like the BNP have a sense of injustice.
Whats needed is to make them realise what the biggest injustices are its not the kind of people that Rothermere etc want them to focus on ....Its people like Rothermere.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My nine year old son and his mate fighting. The vase falls over, smashes on the floor. I come in. My son looks at me and points at his mate.

"He started it!"

And yet again the point eludes you.

You were the one who introduced the spurious elements, and yet you're now whining about them. It isn't that you started it, it's your hypocrisy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've read through this thread and Dylans has made some very good points, only to be utterly opposed by the usual neurotically defensive/self satisfied members of the rag tag of sects represented here.

I'm surprised at you in particular VP

I do like to surprise people.

You know me well enough to know I'm not the type of person who does the whole sect thing (9 months getting bored to tears by m/c twats in the SWP nearly 30 years ago put paid to that), and while dylans may have made some good points, the gold is buried under a ton of petty sectarian dross, much of which is only representative of a politically sectarian view of history. Life isn't black and white, and although I know that details can be pesky, I don't have time for people who just trot (no pun intended!) out the sectarian received wisdom on events without engaging with the detail that lies behind them, something dylans conspicuously hasn't done on this thread.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well it's all our spin on what happened isn't it? So, yes, guilty. Yes I have given my opinion and you have given yours. Unless you are claiming exclusive possession of truth in this matter.

Somewhat ironically, that's pretty much what you have been doing through your childish name-calling and sectarian sloganeering on this thread. I'm surprised you hadn't noticed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You make "anti-imperialist" sound like a dirty word. Says it all really.

You're very quick to make assumptions, aren't you?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, but its certainly been brought into disprepute by groups like STWC and the tiny sects to bolster support for all sorts of creepy organisations. It is no longer, the wretched of the earth' etc.

I'm presuming you mean StWC after the Swaps did their usual "let's take over the organisation" manouvre, rather than before?

 

[treelover]

Of course, and in terms of the WOTE, i think groups like the SWP/STWC have made it harder to do genuine internationalist work.


oh and Spion and dylans having issues with my views, what a surprise, peas in a (prehistoric) pod

 

[dylans]

You're very quick to make assumptions, aren't you?

Considering that you assumed I would trot out the Kinnockite "taxi line" in regards to Liverpool. This is rather the pot calling the kettle black isn't it.

 

[treelover]

@this thread, its all going a bit Ashes To Ashes, 'somewhere back in 1984'!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Considering that you assumed I would trot out the Kinnockite "taxi line" in regards to Liverpool. This is rather the pot calling the kettle black isn't it.

No, I said that if you mentioned the redundancies, you'd probably also mention the taxis, because the two kind of go together. If someone is crass enough to mention one they'll almost always vomit out the other as well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

@this thread, its all going a bit Ashes To Ashes, 'somewhere back in 1984'!

<pedant>
Ashes to Ashes is '82-'83.
</pedant>

 

[tangentlama]

is 'march for england' linked to right-wing nominally christian group that covers usa, canada, uk, europe ?

 

[butchersapron]

<pedant>
Ashes to Ashes is '82-'83.
</pedant>

Don't forget Botham's glorious ashes of '81.

On this nonsense of a UF with al-Muhajiroun - what on earth makes anyone think they want a UF with the left, or indeed anyone outside of the existing muslim communities? They're actively hostile to the left, necessarily so due to their ideology - their whole approach is that the left cannot deal with the problems in these communities, only they and their theocracy can. The last thing they want is to work with any elements of the left. The BNP are far closer top them with their cultural seperatist BS. Dream world stuff.

 

[durruti02]

You forgot to mention him wanking himself off over a picture of Thatcher!

Yep, Militant, friend of imperialism everywhere. Why I remember like it was yesterday Degsy Hatton sending Liverpool council workers to assist in neo-colonial settlement projects in the isle of Man.

Didn't hear about the Isle of Man but i do remember scousers took over many seaside resorts about this time! is it connected?

 

[durruti02]

I was convinced that dylan was some acne encrusted teenager. but it appears he is an adult. fucking hell!
the lefts toleration of such loons is one of the reasons that it has no answer to the events in Luton.

yes simply yes

 

[audiotech]

ermm..I'm non-aligned, ditto I think VP

It shows. More abuse than any thought out line.

Although dennisr trashes all on the abuse stakes. Then when he completely loses it out come the links to sp articles.

Oh and treelover is a fucking joke as I'm sure you've noticed.

 

[durruti02]

no ffs! it just means there are ways to go about ENGAGING with the workers, and it was Labour's total failure to do this properly in '83, which got them caned, and your total failure, for the whole of your political life to dio so, that renders you, politically speaking, more impotent than a 90-year-old eunuch. All you offer is posturing, demonisation and vilification of the workers - and a total failure to understand.

but how do you get these people to understand this??

 

[durruti02]

There is some truth in that - would not call it 'a social necessity' though - more a lack of better alternatives on offer

yes nigel makes good points but i think your answer is correct

btw many brits of pakistani origin are middle class though yes not as many as ugandan asian origin for example

 

[durruti02]

Would elements of the left and "anti fascist" movement enter into dialogue with al-Muhajiroun and/or similar organisations or would they consider them too far off the mark for this too happen.

Elements of Anti Fascist movement and Anarchists are sympathetic and have dialogue with UBA perhaps an effective no platform policy can be attributed within their ranks!

i am not sure what you are quite saying .. but yes anarchists socialists whoever should be approaching WITHOUT PREJUDICE young people on both sides for meetings ..

p.s. prejudice should be reserved for older far right/relegious activists

 

[Nigel]

i am not sure what you are quite saying .. but yes anarchists socialists whoever should be approaching WITHOUT PREJUDICE young people on both sides for meetings ..

p.s. prejudice should be reserved for older far right/relegious activists

Its usually youth who are more zealant with idealism

 

[durruti02]

You sound like a right wing union bureaucrat or maybe Neil Kinnock.

And as for Franz Fanon. The tragedy is, for millions of people the wretched of the earth is still the reality and you really show your true colours by denying it.

Ask the people of Gaza or Iraq.

i despair fo people like you .. i am sure somewhere in their you mean well but you are so much a victim of capitalists aleination you have become one of them .. you are so wordy so alienated so obscure so intelectual ( in the worst sense) so other so estranged so vanguard you are entirely irrelevent to the world let alone the w/c .. and what is the point of a left that si so utterly irrelevent .. it is NO point it is pointless .. .. ultimatley you never bothered to read marx you people

"The philosophers have already perceived the world in various ways; the point is to change it"

you wank on about all your bullshit theories yet misunderstand the whole basis of historical materialsm and dialectical change .. IF YOU ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE CLASS YOU DO NOT EXIST .. you have become an irrelevent abstraction

i am NOT as dennisr well knows a fan of either trotskism or leninism or of much of the method of the MT .. but i can not fault that SP are there working with people day in day out not turning up as outsiders selling their xtian wares .. SP by being involved in the class actually HAS changed .. WP and the similar trot sects are doomed not to chnage but simply to die

and as strethemite says so accurately it is the bullshit of these fuck ups like Dylan ( and i am sorry for your fuck up whatever caused it) that has allowed the space for the far right to re emerge

 

[dylans]

Don't forget Botham's glorious ashes of '81.

On this nonsense of a UF with al-Muhajiroun - what on earth makes anyone think they want a UF with the left, or indeed anyone outside of the existing muslim communities? They're actively hostile to the left, necessarily so due to their ideology - their whole approach is that the left cannot deal with the problems in these communities, only they and their theocracy can. The last thing they want is to work with any elements of the left. The BNP are far closer top them with their cultural seperatist BS. Dream world stuff.

That's actually a good point.

They are separatist and exist as a force only within Sunni Muslim communities. They are in effect an obstacle to secular or non theological ideas reaching people in these communities. They are also relatively small. Better to encourage anti racist Muslims to build a non theological movement in contest to their ideas.
Andf, yes. I know it's easier said than done.

However a good start would be to recognise the legitimate anti- imperialist concerns of many non Islamist Muslims via issues such as Gaza, Iraq etc. Not simply dismiss all expressions of this as Islamist. Despite their faults, this is something that RESPECT have tried to do at least

 

[durruti02]

They are separatist and exist as a force only within Sunni Muslim communities. They are in effect an obstacle to secular or non theological ideas reaching people in these communities. They are also relatively small. Better to encourage anti racist Muslims to build a non theological movement in contest to their ideas.

you said earlier ..

" ...It doesn't matter what the politics of the protestors was. .."

this whole debae was around that it DOES matter .. so is this a back track?

 

[BlackArab]

How does that happen? It is a serious question although those people could reflect that many of their favourite players would be kicked out if the filth had their way.

And as for if they ever need a hospital...

A number of reasons tbh mate.

Because the BNP have learnt from the mistakes of the NF in the 70s/80s and have been successful at marketing themselves towards the mainstream.

Being overtly racist in public and surrounding yourself with bonesheads seig-heilling and screaming 'Wogs Out' is not a vote winner in middle England.

The BNP are not openly talking about repatriating Rio Ferdinand or Dizzee Rascal, they are smarter than that.

Post 9-11/7-7 Islamaphobia has been a massive boost for them and they are taking advantage of this and people's fears and ignorance.

At the same time we have the continuing failure of the English Left to engage with the white working class and challenge the BNP (IMO).

 

[Nigel]

They, if you are talking about al-Muhajiroun work not only within the "Muslim"
community, but also act in an evangelical manner, knew a couple of white people who joined act almost as a surrogate family!

 

[BlackArab]

It is a serious question and an important one.
I think what sways people is when you engage with what they say. You need to appeal to people on the basis of their self interest. Some people will read or hear about something that suggests to them the problem is foreigners etc and most newspapers appeal to peoples sense of injustice. The way the mail or sun feeds peoples sense of injustice can be to say that oh look at that group getting more than they should etc.....But look at the group that really gets more than they should in society, is it the refugees, the occasional person on the sick who aint really that sick or is it the super rich....The people who have wealth handed down to them from generation to generation.

Most people who look towards organsations like the BNP have a sense of injustice.
Whats needed is to make them realise what the biggest injustices are its not the kind of people that Rothermere etc want them to focus on ....Its people like Rothermere.

Well said that man.