Oh dear... Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson sacked over Huawei leak.

[Louis MacNeice]

Idiot.

I didn't use corporal punishment with my own child, which I would have had your view been right.

That doesn't follow at all. If only personal psychology was so straight forward.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Sasaferrato]

Still, taught you respect for power.

Everyone is wary of more powerful people or things. Respect is something that has to be earned.

 

[8ball]

I'm 56 going on 57 and at the state schools I went to, teachers who hit you were despised and seen as 'wrong uns'. At primary school we had a female teacher who put your name in a book to be called out the next morning and hit across the hands with a ruler....we were 6 and 7 and we knew it was wrong and weird. At secondary school we had a male head teacher who would read out a list of names to report to his office after assembly for the cane...we were teenagers and we knew it was wrong and weird.

Please don't try to include me in your attempted 'blindness to abuse' revisionism; adults hitting children (especially with impunity and without sanction) hurts the children and the adults. You are not looking good trying (for whatever reasons) to diminish or dismiss that hurt.

Cheers and take care - Louis MacNeice

It was different with us - mostly done in anger, with only the very occasional “cold blood caning” for the worst offences.

This was the end of the 70s and there was an awareness that most of the teachers didn’t really agree with it, especially the younger ones.

As the “rules” were, the anger-driven thumps would have been seen as more problematic than the ritualised canings by the old guard, whereas as the kids we could identity with the same kind of flashpoint violence we used on each other, and often received from parents. As opposed to the ritual humiliations which came with a kind of haughty pretended judicial disinterest.

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone is wary of more powerful people or things. Respect is something that has to be earned.

yeh and you lose it if you go round beating youngsters

 

[Sasaferrato]

It's not about moving on. It's about accepting that people were really hurt by their experiences and that this still matters. You were lucky in not experiencing this enduring hurt; I'm unclear why you wish to denigrate what other people have been and continue to go through...what skin is it off your nose?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Soft is soft. nothing much I can do about that.

I would advise the development of some resilience. Obsessing about childhood events perceived as wrongs is pointless.

 

[Poi E]

It was different with us - mostly done in anger, with only the very occasional “cold blood caning” for the worst offences.

This was the end of the 70s and there was an awareness that most of the teachers didn’t really agree with it, especially the younger ones.

As the “rules” were, the anger-driven thumps would have been seen as more problematic than the ritualised canings by the old guard, whereas as the kids we could identity with the same kind of flashpoint violence we used on each other, and often received from parents. As opposed to the ritual humiliations which came with a kind of haughty pretended judicial disinterest.

It was the wait in line as others went first into the office that caused me the most anxiety. You knew it was the teachers whim if they were hungover or whatever and marked you for corporal. Then sent into the bureaucracy to be fed up to the alcoholic chief sadist.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

It was different with us - mostly done in anger, with only the very occasional “cold blood caning” for the worst offences.

This was the end of the 70s and there was an awareness that most of the teachers didn’t really agree with it, especially the younger ones.

As the “rules” were, the anger-driven thumps would have been seen as more problematic than the ritualised canings by the old guard, whereas as the kids we could identity with the same kind of flashpoint violence we used on each other, and often received from parents. As opposed to the ritual humiliations which came with a kind of haughty pretended judicial disinterest.

That seems to fit with my experience. By the time I left secondary school (1978) it was much more as you described; thanks for the insight.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Sasaferrato]

seems to me that in your mind, if not in your posts, this still affects you

Not in the slightest. It is not something I think about, unless something in conversation brings it up.

Why on earth would it affect me? It was something that happened 50 years ago, and was generally well deserved.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Soft is soft. nothing much I can do about that.

I would advise the development of some resilience. Obsessing about childhood events perceived as wrongs is pointless.

So it's the responsibility of the abused to toughen up...you're still not looking too good. Why such an apparent attachment to not holding the abusers to account; any thoughts?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Sasaferrato]

It was different with us - mostly done in anger, with only the very occasional “cold blood caning” for the worst offences.

This was the end of the 70s and there was an awareness that most of the teachers didn’t really agree with it, especially the younger ones.

As the “rules” were, the anger-driven thumps would have been seen as more problematic than the ritualised canings by the old guard, whereas as the kids we could identity with the same kind of flashpoint violence we used on each other, and often received from parents. As opposed to the ritual humiliations which came with a kind of haughty pretended judicial disinterest.

It was a belt in Scotland, thankfully, I would imagine a cane would hurt much more. You only felt the first one, your hand was numb after that.

As I said earlier, things move on, and corporal punishment was stopped, and rightly so. In general, violence is not an answer to anything.

I did a rough calculation, and would reckon that I must have been belted about once a week in primary school, but only two or three times in secondary school.

I may have been lucky, I was never the target of a vindictive teacher, and would not have said at the time that the 'crime' didn't deserve the punishment. I was one of those kids that couldn't resist pushing the envelope to the point of rupture.

It's not something I think about really, and certainly don't hold grudges. It just was, that was what happened then, things are different now.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So it's the responsibility of the abused to toughen up...you're still not looking too good. Why such an apparent attachment to not holding the abusers to account; any thoughts?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Because it wasn't abuse. It was the disciplinary system then, something you appear not to be able to get your head around.

 

[mojo pixy]

I was hit by a number of teachers, both my parents and a variety of other adults pretty regularly. Fuck them all for doing that. Mainly what it taught me was to hit back harder than I got hit, it also got me punished in many other ways as I tried to square the circle of they hit me but I can't hit them back?

tl;dr, anyone who hits a kid should be hit back harder.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because it wasn't abuse. It was the disciplinary system then, something you appear not to be able to get your head around.

what happens when the disciplinary system IS abuse?

 

[Sasaferrato]

yeh and you lose it if you go round beating youngsters

Stop shit stirring. It was not a random and arbitrary act, as you well know.

 

[Sasaferrato]

what happens when the disciplinary system IS abuse?

It wasn't.

 

[Pickman's model]

Stop shit stirring. It was not a random and arbitrary act, as you well know.

i'm not suggesting it was random i am suggesting you lose respect if you beat children

 

[Santino]

You idiots! Bad things are actually good. Very, very good.

 

[8ball]

It was a belt in Scotland, thankfully, I would imagine a cane would hurt much more. You only felt the first one, your hand was numb after that.

The cane on the hand was the most feared one. The cane on the arse was seen as the softer option. Both were rare by that point. There was also an abandoned training shoe that the PE teachers used, but their preference was usually violence by proxy. Set certain kids on certain others.

As I said earlier, things move on, and corporal punishment was stopped, and rightly so. In general, violence is not an answer to anything.

So you think it was about ineffectiveness, as opposed to harm caused?

I did a rough calculation, and would reckon that I must have been belted about once a week in primary school, but only two or three times in secondary school.

Yeah, there was a definite change in emphasis from quantity to quality.

I may have been lucky, I was never the target of a vindictive teacher, and would not have said at the time that the 'crime' didn't deserve the punishment.

This was a big part of the problem. You may not have seen it as an abuse in itself, but it opened the door to all manner of things that I'm sure you'd agree were abusive.

It's not something I think about really, and certainly don't hold grudges. It just was, that was what happened then, things are different now.

But you do seem to accept (or at least imply) that it had a hardening effect. Part of our socialisation as males, as it was.

My younger make friends and work colleagues do seem a bit "soft" at times (and will do things like hug each other when one is a bit down, which never happens in my age group). They will also mercilessly take the piss out of each other just like us older goats, and many do things requiring a good deal of mental toughness (ultramarathons were in vogue a year or so back) so it seems like maybe they gained more than they lost.

Or we lost more than we gained.

 

[Poi E]

It served its purpose in legitimising the use of violence by power. Those particularly affected often went on to the police or armed services.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Soft is soft. nothing much I can do about that.

I would advise the development of some resilience. Obsessing about childhood events perceived as wrongs is pointless.

First shift at the Samaritans going well, I see.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The cane on the hand was the most feared one. The cane on the arse was seen as the softer option. Both were rare by that point. There was also an abandoned training shoe that the PE teachers used, but their preference was usually violence by proxy. Set certain kids on certain others.



So you think it was about ineffectiveness, as opposed to harm caused?



Yeah, there was a definite change in emphasis from quantity to quality.



This was a big part of the problem. You may not have seen it as an abuse in itself, but it opened the door to all manner of things that I'm sure you'd agree were abusive.



But you do seem to accept (or at least imply) that it had a hardening effect. Part of our socialisation as males, as it was.

My younger make friends and work colleagues do seem a bit "soft" at times (and will do things like hug each other when one is a bit down, which never happens in my age group). They will also mercilessly take the piss out of each other just like us older goats, and many do things requiring a good deal of mental toughness (ultramarathons were in vogue a year or so back) so it seems like maybe they gained more than they lost.

Or we lost more than we gained.

I'm not quite sure what your point is?

 

[8ball]

It was the wait in line as others went first into the office that caused me the most anxiety. You knew it was the teachers whim if they were hungover or whatever and marked you for corporal. Then sent into the bureaucracy to be fed up to the alcoholic chief sadist.

Sadists and alcohol. Always hand in hand.

 

[Poi E]

Yes, it taught you the association between alcohol, depression and violence if you weren't learning it at home.

 

[andysays]

what happens when the disciplinary system IS abuse?

In some cases, it appears that those who have been abused identity with their abusers, refuse to acknowledge that they have been abused and instead attack others who complain about the abuse they have experienced.

Perhaps they are as damaged as those who can at least recognise they've been abused, even if the damage manifests itself differently.

 

[Pickman's model]

In some cases, it appears that those who have been abused identity with their abusers, refuse to acknowledge that they have been abused and instead attack others who complain about the abuse they have experienced.

Perhaps they are as damaged, as those who can at least recognise they've been abused, even if the damage manifests itself differently.

the auld stockholm syndrome

 

[Poi E]

In some cases, it appears that those who have been abused identity with their abusers, refuse to acknowledge that they have been abused and instead attack others who complain about the abuse they have experienced.

Perhaps they are as damaged, as those who can at least recognise they've been abused, even if the damage manifests itself differently.

I have witnessed this personally after making allegations. Not fucking nice at all.

 

[8ball]

I'm not quite sure what your point is?

Maybe for you it's a little like the aftermath of a blood clot on the retina.
The spot you don't see is exactly where the damage is.

 

[andysays]

I have witnessed this personally after making allegations. Not fucking nice at all.

Sorry to hear that

 

[Sasaferrato]

It served its purpose in legitimising the use of violence by power. Those particularly affected often went on to the police or armed services.

<Sigh>

This was something that happened to successive generations of children... The police and armed services must have been numbered in the tens of millions.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I did a rough calculation, and would reckon that I must have been belted about once a week in primary school

Effective at controlling your bad behaviour, then.