Northern Independence Party

[killer b]

Leeds! There's a surprise.

I've not found what I've seen of the london/North row that tedious, but I've not really seen much of it. Its politics twitter that's tedious IMO. If you're actually engaging mostly with non politics stuff on there the discourse isn't so achingly dull.

 

[ska invita]

we've done this before but

Social geographer Danny Dorling did a very thorough study using a variety of sociocultural measures to decide where the line was
he concluded

by interesting coincidence this nearly matches the line where the glacier reached during the last ice age

another map that follows this line, royalist in the north and parliamentarians in the south at the outbreak of the Civil War

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Doesn't that map also show the distribution of the different pronunciations of the word 'scone'?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

at denial of existence of the midlands

 

[Serge Forward]

Yeah, but is it a barm cake or a muffin?

 

[brogdale]

Looks like Kent, south Gloucestershire and northern Somerset are vying for associate membership of the independent republic:

 

[19sixtysix]

Doesn't that map also show the distribution of the different pronunciations of the word 'scone'?

How Do You Pronounce "Scone?" - Map of the UK and Ireland - Brilliant Maps

Map created by Adrian Leemann

brilliantmaps.com

 

[Rimbaud]

I'm enjoying their audacity, bunged them some money. If all they achieve is an alternative northern voice in the media (rather than Brexiteer-at-market-stall) that'd be a fine thing.

Agreed that a new northern voice in the media would be great, and very pleased to see that they're currently being vocal against this idea that the North is all homogenous small towns who hate immigrants.

Right wing Labour have been using this fantasy of a bigoted North to justify their own crap politics and its about time they start getting called out on it. Anecdotally I've found a lot of London liberals absolutely love hand wringing about how bigoted everywhere is outside of London and it doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny.

Apart from Birmingham and London, the north is home to all of England's largest metropolitan areas. Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, Liverpool, these are where most Northerners live, they largely didn't vote for Brexit, and are far from homogenous small towns.

London media circles only get away with such lazy self serving depictions ("I am so much more enlightened than them" on the left, "we need racist politics to get elected" on the right) of the North because it is largely London talking to London. Very happy to see a party representing the North talking back because its very annoying and long overdue being called out.

I gave them 20 quid. Might consider joining just to a) get revenge for Thatcher, b) frighten Westminster into taking the North South divide seriously, and c) spite the PLP.

I would love to see them do well, and I suspect this might have more legs than people are expecting.

 

[lazythursday]

They have just opened membership
Join

I am tempted. But I am still currently a disgruntled member of the Labour party. My head says my fiver a month is better spent in order to vote for left wing Labour party candidates but my heart says, fuck it, let's have an insolent campaign for independence.

 

[teuchter]

Anecdotally I've found a lot of London liberals absolutely love hand wringing about how bigoted everywhere is outside of London and it doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny.

You're not entirely wrong there... but at the same time,

 

[Artaxerxes]

You're not entirely wrong there... but at the same time,

View attachment 241298

UKIP didn't just tap into the Racist vote it also tapped quite elegantly into the "what the fuck have London ever done for us" vote in areas blighted by neglect from Westminster and Labour and Conservatives. It was also aided by a constant flush of media that the likes of the Greens would chop off a limb for as barely a panel show or question time ever did without Farage or UKIP's name plastered all over it.

There is a narrative or idea that the forrins are to blame for this that has been used by the media and UKIP to justify budget cuts or foisting immigrants in areas unprepared to deal with them or already creaking at the seams with services barely able to cope.

 

[The39thStep]

You're not entirely wrong there... but at the same time,

View attachment 241298

When's this from? The 2014 Euro elections ?

 

[teuchter]

When's this from? The 2014 Euro elections ?

2015 GE apparently

http://www.viewsoftheworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ElectoralDoctrine_VotingMaps2015.png

 

[teuchter]

UKIP didn't just tap into the Racist vote it also tapped quite elegantly into the "what the fuck have London ever done for us" vote in areas blighted by neglect from Westminster and Labour and Conservatives. It was also aided by a constant flush of media that the likes of the Greens would chop off a limb for as barely a panel show or question time ever did without Farage or UKIP's name plastered all over it.

There is a narrative or idea that the forrins are to blame for this that has been used by the media and UKIP to justify budget cuts or foisting immigrants in areas unprepared to deal with them or already creaking at the seams with services barely able to cope.

A narrative that has been rejected by Londoners.

 

[Rimbaud]

You're not entirely wrong there... but at the same time,

View attachment 241298

True that London wasn't interested in UKIP, but I don't think East Anglia or Essex look much different to the North there either. Aside from London, the paler areas in England there look like they are probably that large, near continuous urban area around Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds.

There is some truth in it for sure. But it's also not the full picture - London draws in younger workers from the North who leave for more job opportunities, which leaves an older population in the North and skews the electoral landscape as a result. The brain drain is a problem of structural imbalances which have not been seriously addressed and have only widened since Thatcher ran roughshod over the Northern economy. Tbh the gap has grown wider and wider for the last 40 years or so, it is no surprise that it would eventually manifest in explicitly regional politics.

Edit - I know the age factor clearly isn't the only reason for London being less UKIP, London is very obviously a much more international place than other parts of the UK. But being more international is also a product of benefiting from 40 years of London-centric economic policies which draw in more people from elsewhere.

 

[The39thStep]

True that London wasn't interested in UKIP, but I don't think East Anglia or Essex look much different to the North there either. Aside from London, the paler areas in England there look like they are probably that large, near continuous urban area around Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds.

There is some truth in it for sure. But it's also not the full picture - London draws in younger workers from the North who leave for more job opportunities, which leaves an older population in the North and skews the electoral landscape as a result. The brain drain is a problem of structural imbalances which have not been seriously addressed and have only widened since Thatcher ran roughshod over the Northern economy. Tbh the gap has grown wider and wider for the last 40 years or so, it is no surprise that it would eventually manifest in explicitly regional politics.

A map of support for UKIP tells us very little about 'bigotry' but lots more about how Labour and the left disengaged from the working class.

 

[platinumsage]

another map that follows this line, royalist in the north and parliamentarians in the south at the outbreak of the Civil War
View attachment 241175

I can't find my neolithic and bronze age book which has several interesting north-south maps, but I did find these:





But as I said before I think this has always been the most important one, from the Neolithic up until the present day, whether the travel is from London or from the continent:

 

[brogdale]

A map of support for UKIP tells us very little about 'bigotry' but lots more about how Labour and the left disengaged from the working class.

Yes, and though we've been through this loads of times before, the correlations with Leave voting found in many psephological studies point up a number of key drivers of the electoral expression of being 'left behind' and surrogates for that neglect:

eg.

 

[teuchter]

A map of support for UKIP tells us very little about 'bigotry' but lots more about how Labour and the left disengaged from the working class.

Let's see how the Northern Independence Party does at "engaging with the working class".

 

[killer b]

London has a huge population of people born outside the UK (30-odd percent) and under 50% white british - it's not really surprising that a populist nationalist party struggles to get much of a following there.

 

[Wilf]

Great piece in Red Pepper today - defo joining up.

Red Pepper Magazine - Red Pepper

Red Pepper magazine is a quarterly publication and website of left politics and culture. We draw on feminist, green and anti-racist politics.

www.redpepper.org.uk

With the random splattering of historical movements (levellers, Rochdale co-op etc.) and shortage of detail on plans ('common ownership'), I felt the shade of Lord Anthony Wedgewood Benn.

 

[brogdale]

London has a huge population of people born outside the UK (30-odd percent) and under 50% white british - it's not really surprising that a populist nationalist party struggles to get much of a following there.

True, but also much of its population has higher than average levels of educational qualifications, fewer strong traditions of extractive or manufacturing employment, higher than average pay and lower levels of unemployment and less obvious concentrations of immigration from the accession states.

 

[The39thStep]

Let's see how the Northern Independence Party does at "engaging with the working class".

I'm not anything to do with them , I wish them well but its going to take more than an overnight Twitter account to do the spade work. I doubt if they'll have the numbers or stamina tbh. However I do think initiatives like them , Burnham's standing up for Manchester and other examples could strike a vein of populism. I'd much prefer that then the populist right exploit the inequalities inflicted by both previous Labour and Tory governments on the northern working class.

 

[killer b]

True, but also much of its population has higher than average levels of educational qualifications, fewer strong traditions of extractive or manufacturing employment, higher than average pay and lower levels of unemployment and less obvious concentrations of immigration from the accession states.

I'd be interested to see some polling about the views of the 44% white british londoners and how much they differ from elsewhere in the country before starting to look elsewhere for reasons tbh. I had a quick look but I've not been able to find anything that granular yet...

 

[Wilf]

I'm not anything to do with them , I wish them well but its going to take more than an overnight Twitter account to do the spade work. I doubt if they'll have the numbers or stamina tbh. However I do think initiatives like them , Burnham's standing up for Manchester and other examples could strike a vein of populism. I'd much prefer that then the populist right exploit the inequalities inflicted by both previous Labour and Tory governments on the northern working class.

Me too, though I didn't get anything from the Red Pepper interview or bit of the video I watched that this outfit have roots in working class communities. Might be wrong, but it doesn't sound like it's ready to go with that sort of campaigning.

 

[The39thStep]

Me too, though I didn't get anything from the Red Pepper interview or bit of the video I watched that this outfit have roots in working class communities. Might be wrong, but it doesn't sound like it's ready to go with that sort of campaigning.

They are also vulnerable to municipal Labours new found regionalism unless they actually campaign and build against them on the ground

 

[brogdale]

I'd be interested to see some polling about the views of the 44% white british londoners and how much they differ from elsewhere in the country before starting to look elsewhere for reasons tbh. I had a quick look but I've not been able to find anything that granular yet...

Yeah, me neither, but the maps show the expected correlation between White, British sensual self-description and UKIP support (2014 Council):



Aside from the obvious centrifugal forces wrt to 'white flight' and the search for more 'affordable' housing affecting the outer periphery, there is an West/East differentiation to the correlation, as there is in many socio-economic factors in GL.

nb the blank districts on the right hand map are where the UKIP vote was <10%.

 

[killer b]

Yeah, me neither, but the maps show the expected correlation between White, British sensual self-description and UKIP support (2014 Council):

View attachment 241342

Aside from the obvious centrifugal forces wrt to 'white flight' and the search for more 'affordable' housing affecting the outer periphery, there is an West/East differentiation to the correlation, as there is in many socio-economic factors in GL.

nb the blank districts on the right hand map are where the UKIP vote was <10%.

What's the map on the left?

 

[brogdale]

What's the map on the left?

Apols; 2011 Census 'White, British' %.

 

[killer b]

Apols; 2011 Census 'White, British' %.

Cheers - that shows more or less what I expected tbh.