Noam Chomsky: 9-11: Institutional Analysis vs. Conspiracy Theory

[Jazzz]

So that's the Operation Northwood which involved plans to do some simulated attacks to blame Cuba for because they clearly didn't have the bottle to kill real, breathing US sailors (let alone civilians) as part of their scam ...

Couldn't that be used as evidence that the attacks on 11 September wouldn't have been carried out by the USG because even at the depths of the problems with Cuba (which, I would suggest, were at least as much of a threat to the US as Al-Quaeda / Iraq or whatever) they didn't even have the bottle to kill a (relative) few service personnel ...

Oh no DB, the plans included for the deaths of US servicemen and US civilians, in addition to Cuban refugees

Firebombing and sinking an American ship at the Guantanamo Bay American military base — reminiscent of the USS Maine incident at Havana in 1898, which started the Spanish-American War — or destroy American aircraft and blame it on Cuban forces. (The document's first suggestion regarding the sinking of a U.S. ship is to blow up a manned ship and hence would result in U.S. Navy members being killed, with a secondary suggestion of possibly using unmanned drones and fake funerals instead.)

...

"Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."

Still no comment on how anyone would have rumbled it...

 

[Badger Kitten]

ONLY it didn't happen.

 

[Jazzz]

ONLY it didn't happen.

Oh right, and when it's daytime, the stars aren't there anymore? Because you can't see them.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Oh right, and when it's daytime, the stars aren't there anymore? Because you can't see them.

Erm, no Jazz, the stars, actually, like, happened. That's why we can see them.

 

[Badger Kitten]

last....

 

[Blagsta]

Oh right, and when it's daytime, the stars aren't there anymore? Because you can't see them.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Oh right, and when it's daytime, the stars aren't there anymore? Because you can't see them.

Can that go on a classic funnies thread?

 

[Jazzz]

last....

oh right! when you can't cope call for the bin!

Allow to me explain AGAIN for you in more detail. When considering false-flag terror attacks, the only way we are going to get the documents is for the plots that didn't happen; and for those to have been many years back. It would be very fair to assume that for the ones that didn't happen there have been ones that did, and for ones that are old enough to be declassified, there are ones that are not. All in all, very fair to assume that for every declassified plot that didn't happen there may well have been several plots that did happen, and much more recent. Are you able to follow that?

 

[Blagsta]

It would be very fair to assume that for the ones that didn't happen there have been ones that did

Why is that a fair assumption?

 

[Badger Kitten]

So the fact that we don't have any proof or evidence that it happened is proof that it actually happened?

rolls on floor

No, don't bin this nonsense, I have changed my mind, it is quality comedy. Keep going Jazzz....

...only I have to go out for dinner now, damn, there's the door bell.

 

[Jazzz]

Because as I've explained, just as the only part of the iceberg you can see is above the surface, the only documents for false-flag terror we can see are subjected to the following filters: 1) they had to NOT happen 2) they had to decades old enough to be declassified.

Another consideration is this - for Operation Northwoods to have been seriously considered, they must have had practise at doing the same shit for real.

 

[Blagsta]

You're making a huge amount of assumptions there.

 

[Jazzz]

So the fact that we don't have any proof or evidence that it happened is proof that it actually happened?

No, you are clearly very confused, I'm not saying Operation Northwoods happened. do run along for dinner

 

[Blagsta]

Let me get this straight. You're claiming that a plan for a "false flag op" from 50 years ago, that was never carried out, is proof that 9/11 and 7/7 were "false flag ops"?

Errr...run that by me again. I think I missed something.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Another consideration is this - for Operation Northwoods to have been seriously considered, they must have had practise at doing the same shit for real.

Again you try to base results on (stupid and) deeply flawed assumptions. Read the biography of Ian Fleming and tell us again about how planing operations works...

 

[Jazzz]

You're making a huge amount of assumptions there.

Well, we are in the dark about having the US own up to false flag operations - which assumptions are more reasonable? Mine, or the assumption that if they haven't told us about it it can't have happened?

But in any case, the hypothetical question is still there - how would we have spotted Op. Northwoods? No-one has ventured to suggest any possible clue.

 

[Blagsta]

Well, we are in the dark about having the US own up to false flag operations - which assumptions are more reasonable? Mine, or the assumption that if they haven't told us about it it can't have happened?

But in any case, the hypothetical question is still there - how would we have spotted Op. Northwoods? No-one has ventured to suggest any possible clue.

Trouble with your assumptions is that you're using things that aren't linked in any way to support a conclusion that you've already decided on. It really is quite mad.

 

[Jazzz]

Let me get this straight. You're claiming that a plan for a "false flag op" from 50 years ago, that was never carried out, is proof that 9/11 and 7/7 were "false flag ops"?

Errr...run that by me again. I think I missed something.

No, I didn't claim that. I have suggested that for every declassified false-flag op there will be ones that are not declassified because they either happened or are more recent, or of course both. The question I asked was how would one have spotted it. No-one has ventured an answer. If one can answer that, one can apply the same criterion for 9/11.

 

[Blagsta]

No, I didn't claim that. I have suggested that for every declassified false-flag op there will be ones that are not declassified because they either happened or are more recent. The question I asked was how would one have spotted it. No-one has ventured an answer.

You're using something that didn't happen 50 years ago to support your already decided upon conclusions. Your thought processes are a bit worrying tbh.

 

[Jazzz]

I didn't support any conclusions. What I did is ask you guys (BK in particular) a question, and no-one answered. I have explained why the question is pertinent.

 

[editor]

Because as I've explained, just as the only part of the iceberg you can see is above the surface,

How do you know it's an 'iceberg' and not just a l'il popsicle?

 

[editor]

No, I didn't claim that. I have suggested that for every declassified false-flag op there will be ones that are not declassified because they either happened or are more recent, or of course both. The question I asked was how would one have spotted it.

Could you name some of these "false flag" operations that have actually happened and involved the killing of US citizens in, say, the last ten years please?

 

[Blagsta]

I didn't support any conclusions.

Come on, why so coy now? At least have the courage of your convictions when confronted with them.

 

[Jazzz]

Could you name some of these "false flag" operations that have actually happened and involved the killing of US citizens in, say, the last ten years please?

I would say that, first and foremost, 9/11 is such a false-flag operation. Do catch up!

 

[Jazzz]

Come on, why so coy now? At least have the courage of your convictions when confronted with them.

I have the courage of my convictions. What I am not going to do is say that the existence of Operation Northwoods per se proves that 9/11 was a similar false-flag operation, when it does not. However it raises very pertinent questions about how one would detect such a plot, questions which no-one seems prepared to address.

 

[Blagsta]

I have the courage of my convictions. What I am not going to do is say that the existence of Operation Northwoods per se proves that 9/11 was a similar false-flag operation, when it does not. However it raises very pertinent questions about how one would detect such a plot, questions which no-one seems prepared to address.

It would be hard to detect. So what? Where does that get us? Although in the case of 9/11, it would have had to have involved so many people that someone would have come up with some convincing evidence by now.

 

[Blagsta]

I would say that, first and foremost, 9/11 is such a false-flag operation. Do catch up!

Based on what evidence? You seem to be arguing in circles.

 

[editor]

I would say that, first and foremost, 9/11 is such a false-flag operation. Do catch up!

I'm not interested in your fact-free fantasies, but if you're unable to produce any credibly-sourced examples of real 'false flag' operations from the last decade like I asked, why not just say so?

I'm not interested in your 'convictions' or 'hunches' or 'beliefs' but you've already been seen to get them horribly and embarrassingly wrong, time after time.

So what actual evidence do you have of these US-citizen slaughtering false flag operations taking place in the last ten years? Anything?

 

[Blagsta]

As far as I can make out, Jazzz's argument goes something like this -

False flag ops have been thought about by the US government, therefore they will also have been carried out. However they would be very hard to find evidence for. Therefore 9/11 was a false flag op as there is no evidence for it being one.








Truly, truly mad.

 

[axon]

I have the courage of my convictions. What I am not going to do is say that the existence of Operation Northwoods per se proves that 9/11 was a similar false-flag operation, when it does not. However it raises very pertinent questions about how one would detect such a plot, questions which no-one seems prepared to address.

I get what you are on about Jazzz (I think). How would we detect a plot such as Northwoods? Well, if it wasn't actually carried out I reckon as you seem to think that it would be hard, and we'd have to wait for material to be declassified, as was the case for Northwoods.
However, consider if Northwoods had been carried out. It would have been a lot easier to detect, people would have actually been involved in doing it, equipment would have to be moved around, US personnel could have been spotted by the Cubans etc. There are lots of ways it could ahve been detected had it been carried out. It is difficult to get too specific though as it wasn't carried out