Noam Chomsky: 9-11: Institutional Analysis vs. Conspiracy Theory

[editor]

Editor, you provide lemon meringue to wealthy camels in mozambique.

Would you now like a detailed explaination of exactly how you do so, and what I mean by my statement?

No, I'll just ban you instead because I've had enough of your idiotic disruptions.

Bye.

 

[Crispy]

What the fuck are you on about, you fucking weirdo?

What "services" am I providing to what "wealthy businessmen"?

And even if I was, why does it make you "sick"?

You work for the capitalists, ed. The media capitalists even. And they're in on it. They're the baddies, and you're consorting with them. For shame.

 

[axon]

200+ smoking guns http://killtown.911review.org/911smokingguns.html,

200+ pieces of shite do not equal a diamond.

9/11 was an inside job and i`ve been banned for saying it.

Oh, I thought you were banned for C+P odysseys. Because I'm sure I've read on several threads that you think 911 was an inside job, but they didn't all result in you getting banned.

One of the reasons people don't listen to you is that you lie to further your own agenda. This does not endear people to you.

 

[editor]

You work for the capitalists, ed. The media capitalists even. And they're in on it. They're the baddies, and you're consorting with them. For shame.

I'm so ashamed that I've had to ban nutty Azrael for a month because I couldn't bear to be reminded of my heinous crimes against humanity.

 

[axon]

You banned him!
Aha! Yet more proof that 911 was an inside job.

 

[editor]

You banned him!
Aha! Yet more proof that 911 was an inside job.

Damn right. And it was nothing to do with his weird stuff about "wealthy camels in mozambique" or the wealthy businessmen I'm supposedly giving barf-making services to.

It was because he was getting too close to the truth.

 

[Blagsta]

Unfortunately for us, there IS a grand conspiracy.

And here we have it. For you there is a conspiracy. For everyone else there is reality.

I worry about your mental health Jazzz.

 

[Yossarian]

So much for Azrael23 – was he Dr Jazzz’s bratty little brother or something?

 

[8den]

And here we have it. For you there is a conspiracy. For everyone else there is reality.

I worry about your mental health Jazzz.

No no wait, here in a minute he's going to lay out how exactly the conspiracy did this, why they felt the need to bring down WTC 7 and the pentagon and flight 93, untop of the drama of the WTC attack. He'll give a solid technically plausible and detailed description of how the charges were planted, what happened to the passengers on those planes, how the phone calls were faked. We'll get a solid explanation of how the thousands of people necessary to be on this plan were silenced.

Any minute now...




Yup any minute now...








Bueller? Ferris Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?



BTW Editor do you have a weird mascohist streak that explains why you let this Azrael character keep coming back?

 

[pk]

BTW Editor do you have a weird masochist streak that explains why you let this Azrael character keep coming back?

He loves it, who doesn't?

All that bonkers theory, makes me laugh, then they get ridiculed, insulted, upset and banned, which is of course even funnier.
I tend to treat them the same way as mad evangelical Scientologists.
They really do believe in all that shit, and they've all got that "too much Star Trek" look in their eye.

 

[8den]

He loves it, who doesn't?

All that bonkers theory, makes me laugh, then they get ridiculed, insulted, upset and banned, which is of course even funnier.
I tend to treat them the same way as mad evangelical Scientologists.
They really do believe in all that shit, and they've all got that "too much Star Trek" look in their eye.

But doesn't this become the most apt smiley of all time?

When speaking to this ilk I'm involved in two Irish boards and have gotten banned for my three pet hates Irish republician bullshit, creationism, and 9/11 conspiracy theorist

Sinn Fein Supporter: The IRA campaign was a campaign to protect catholics from unionist pograms

Me: How do you protect catholics by blowing up brimingham bars?

Sinn Fein Supporter: The IRA protected catholics.

Me: Starts banging head aganist wall.
--
Creationists: You only needed two of every type of animals they'd have managed fine

Me: Explain australia

Creationist: oh y'know Noah dropped off the platpus and Koala bear early or something.
---

9/11 Loon: Blah blah fucking blah

me

 

[pk]

But doesn't this become the most apt smiley of all time?

When speaking to this ilk I'm involved in two Irish boards and have gotten banned for my three pet hates Irish republician bullshit, creationism, and 9/11 conspiracy theorist

Sinn Fein Supporter: The IRA campaign was a campaign to protect catholics from unionist pograms

Me: How do you protect catholics by blowing up brimingham bars?

Sinn Fein Supporter: The IRA protected catholics.

Me: Starts banging head aganist wall.
--
Creationists: You only needed two of every type of animals they'd have managed fine

Me: Explain australia

Creationist: oh y'know Noah dropped off the platpus and Koala bear early or something.
---

9/11 Loon: Blah blah fucking blah

me

Do what I do, just get pissed and hurl abuse at them for the fuck of it.

It changes nothing but it's cathartic.

 

[8den]

Do what I do, just get pissed and hurl abuse at them for the fuck of it.

It changes nothing but it's cathartic.

I dunno I had a less than productive week wandering around those forums I mentioned and frankly (and this is incredibly) Jazzz and Squugee, and Arzael are the sane tip of the iceberg there are people out their who make these headcases lok like lucid intelligent people.

Its just wearying at this point.

 

[axon]

Well I think Azrael23 is an asset to these boards. Not only does he provide entertainment, but it's so easy to pull apart his mad ideas that I think it strengthens the arguments that exist in favour of evidence and reality. He is the living dynamic proof of "if it's on the internet, it don't mean it is true".

 

[Jonti]

You are mistaken Jonti - because in the case where just some Cretans are liars, the statement 'All Cretans are liars' is clearly not true. So in case (b) our lying Cretan is not telling the truth, he is telling a lie. No paradox!

As stated previously, the paradox is about a Cretan asserting *all* Cretans are liars all of the time.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Wealthy businessmen, editor.

To whom you provide "services", you make me sick.

I'm so ashamed that I've had to ban nutty Azrael for a month because I couldn't bear to be reminded of my heinous crimes against humanity.

It was because he was getting too close to the truth

 

[Badger Kitten]

The odd conspiraloon is fun, if they are up for it, having their arguments shredded. I don't know why the y keep trying, but it seems to ve that evangelising is part of the deal. It is when they start proselytising in packs that it becomes wearisome. I love the slogans. Remember Prole? ''Only the truth stands up to rigorous analysis''. Erm, quite.

 

[Structaural]

It strikes me that with almost all the CT sites I have visited,what you get is lots of anxious people channelling a vague sense of personal paranoia into a belief that if only they can peer through the veil they will find the Truth, and the Truth will set them free. The Truth most commonly posited in CT sites is that everything that is going wrong is all the fault of some global Evil entitity super-state machine thing.

Believing this, and asking questions and having fun trying on various esoteric theories seems to fulfils a powerful psychological need in some people. It gives them a sense of ' a not-so-nice ordered world where nobody knows what's going on' - apart from them and their fellow truthseekers, and there is a comfort and a feeling of superiority in that. It's not your fault, it's not that you are depressed or paranoid, not as successful in life as you'd like. It's all the fault of the Evil Machine and its uncertainities and manipulations. You, the anxious internet truth hunter are thus off the hook, and you can amuse yourself by searching through endless theories, asking endless questions, feeding your innate paranoia and thus making yourself feel better for generally feeling a bit of an odd one out and always having had this creeping sense of alientation and doom. It's not you. It's Them. Your'e not wierd. You're Neo.

So I say to the conspiracy theory fan: Play on the internet if if it makes you happier, ask endless questions, gad from theory to theory like a mayfly, but don't start trying to convert me to whatever your current fave set of doubts is today, or to expect me to have much patience with endless positing of doom-mongering possible sinsiter theories, asking of endless questions about ''the official version'' of everything, ever, when there's little or no evidence presented to back up these claims, apart from your own selective reading and a general malise of societal unease and anxiety that you've had since you were a nipper which you feed with the internet sites.

Because it is just tiresome. Yes, asking questions, challenging authority is good. But not if asking the questions and then just asking another load of questions is the be-all and end-all of it all - never listening to the answers and considering them and using rationality and logic to form opinions. At some point, it stops being ''truth hunting'' or ''research'' and just becomes akin to OCD.

The world is a messy, fucked up, chaotic, beautiful place. It is what we make it. There is no shadowy force behind everything, it doesn't all link together, so if you ask the right questions enough times and join all the dots, all will become clear.

If you want ineffable certainties in life, go pick a religion. All this CT stuff just winds people up, and drives people madder and madder, because it's tilting at windmills, chasing shadows. It makes the anxious more anxious, the paranoid more paranoid, the angry, angrier. There is no Grand Conspiracy. We are all part of the same dream, the same conspiracy. We are all it. Deal with it. Live it. Engage with it. Step away from the realms of paranoia and ceaseless, pointless speculation and if you want change, make it happen.

*applauds

 

[Jonti]

Everything you see is mediated by quanta of light.

I've no doubt this is true, but for some reason reading that sentence reminds me of Dennis Hopper in Apocalypse Now.

"You can't go to the Moon with fractions...."

Thinks ....

"Captain, a trick o' the light gathers no moon rocks."

 

[squeegee]

Believing this, and asking questions and having fun trying on various esoteric theories seems to fulfils a powerful psychological need in some people.

I would say the same about those who believe there is no conspiracy and the world is just a random chaotic, but nevertheless cosy place

If you want ineffable certainties in life, go pick a religion.

...or become a fundamentalist rationalist who believes in a certain universe where there are no leaders, no elites and everything just happens by itself. That Dawkins has alot to answer for.

All this CT stuff just winds people up, and drives people madder and madder, because it's tilting at windmills, chasing shadows.

Oh well, if it makes people upset then I'll just apologise and allow what I think to be a grave threat to humanity just to go unchecked. Just so I don't upset a few people's cosy world view, of course. Please

There is no Grand Conspiracy. We are all part of the same dream, the same conspiracy. We are all it. Deal with it. Live it. Engage with it. Step away from the realms of paranoia and ceaseless, pointless speculation and if you want change, make it happen.

I actually think this last paragraph is a plausible theory since we are, I have reason to believe (and so do many others, from buddhist monks to quantum physicists), all one consciousness, fragmented into many seemingly disparate entities, but all ultimately stemming from the same source.

But I doubt that's what you meant, so once again, we must accept our differences, with respect. Cos we're all upstanding citizens here who care about the plight of humanity, no? We all believe in tolerance and respect, don't we?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Oh well, if it makes people upset then I'll just apologise and allow what I think to be a grave threat to humanity just to go unchecked. Just so I don't upset a few people's cosy world view, of course. Please


Cos we're all upstanding citizens here who care about the plight of humanity, no? We all believe in tolerance and respect, don't we?

*cough*

So I say to the conspiracy theory fan: Play on the internet if if it makes you happier, ask endless questions, gad from theory to theory like a mayfly, but don't start trying to convert me to whatever your current fave set of doubts is today, or to expect me to have much patience with endless positing of doom-mongering possible sinsiter theories, asking of endless questions about ''the official version'' of everything, ever, when there's little or no evidence presented to back up these claims, apart from your own selective reading and a general malise of societal unease and anxiety that you've had since you were a nipper which you feed with the internet sites.

Because it is just tiresome. Yes, asking questions, challenging authority is good. But not if asking the questions and then just asking another load of questions is the be-all and end-all of it all - never listening to the answers and considering them and using rationality and logic to form opinions. At some point, it stops being ''truth hunting'' or ''research'' and just becomes akin to OCD.

See the bit where I said do what you want, just don't try to convert me without offering any credible evidence? It's the endless evangelising that gets on my tits. You can go and believe in a flying spaghetti monster, that crocodile alien mutants brought down the WTC with pea-shooters and invisible catapults, that King Arthur will return any time soon, that the moon is made of green cheese and that magic beans will grow into giant bean stalks leading to the land of giant treasure-harding ogres if you want to, but th elack of evidence offered for these admitted possibilities means I reserve the right to laugh and point if you try to get me to take them seriously.

 

[squeegee]

*cough*




See the bit where I said do what you want, just don't try to convert me without offering any credible evidence? It's the endless evangelising that gets on my tits. You can go and believe in a flying spaghetti monster, that crocodile alien mutants brought down the WTC with pea-shooters and invisible catapults, that King Arthur will return any time soon, that the moon is made of green cheese and that magic beans will grow into giant bean stalks leading to the land of giant treasure-harding ogres if you want to, but th elack of evidence offered for these admitted possibilities means I reserve the right to laugh and point if you try to get me to take them seriously.

So many contradictions in this paragraph. You've let your anger get the better of you.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I'm not remotely angry at all. I think it is funny.

I do think this is practically a religion with a lot of people. There's little point trying to argue with you.It's like Jehovah's Witnesses.

''But it is all nonsense!''

No! Accept the Lord! Then You Will Understand''




etc.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I'm not a Dawkins follower, FWIW, and I can see that your belief that There Is A Grand, Yet Invisible Conspiracy is an article of faith with you, so I will leave you alone. I wasn't having a go at you personally, so please try not to get so angry when I point out some general observations about conspiracy theorists, after spending many, many hours observing conspiracy theorists and their sites and talking to them over the last 10 months. I get, as I said, about 10 people a week trying to convert me, and it is kind of fascinating. Great material for a book.

 

[squeegee]

So Editor, you ban Asrael23 for suggesting you may have a conflict of interest in your dealings with the corporate world. Is that fair? I think it very relevant to any discussion about 9/11 and conspiracy theories and how the corporate media do not need to order or coerce its clients to think like them, just that if one didn't, they wouldn't really be able to work with them.

As Chomsky once said to Andrew Marr who tried to admonish him when he suggested this by saying [paraphrasing slightly from memory] "Are you saying that I do not believe what I am writing?" to which Chomsky replied, "I'm not saying that. I'm saying if you believed something different you would not be sitting here to ask me that question."

You may well be an activist, anarchist or whatever else, but your continual brandishing of anyone who objects to the official story of 9/11 as a conspiraloon, and your other far nastier insults, could be that you do not wish to upset some of those clients who have paid you money in the past.

So I think once again you have banned someone for no other reason than they raised an uncomfortable truth that you couldn't deal with, namely that your position on 9/11 could be compromised by your employment by multi-national corporations.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Yeah, big business bump off anyone who threatens to unmask their lizard world-control. That's why... oh, erm....

 

[editor]

So Editor, you ban Asrael23 for suggesting you may have a conflict of interest in your dealings with the corporate world.

That's not what he said though, is it, Mr Twisty?

He claimed that I censored all topics on urban75 that "might offput any potential customers who come to purvey my little "project"."

He then refused to make sense of that but went on to claim that I "sickened" him for the mysterious services I supposedly provided to "wealthy businessmen."

All off topic, all irrelevant and all about disrupting this thread with FAQ-busting comments about my private life.

Come back when you've got a half decent point, silly boy.

 

[editor]

So I think once again you have banned someone for no other reason than they raised an uncomfortable truth that you couldn't deal with, namely that your position on 9/11 could be compromised by your employment by multi-national corporations.

Ah, you've decided to join in with this bullshit too!

Great. Let's see you back it up!

So who are these "multi national corporations" I'm currently working for please? Names, if you please!

And what actual evidence have you to support for the defamatory claim that my present employment has somehow 'compromised' my right to express myself freely?

I'm fed up with mouthy dickheads posting up clueless slurs about my personal life, so it's time to show up or shut the fuck up.

 

[squeegee]

I'm not a Dawkins follower, FWIW, and I can see that your belief that There Is A Grand, Yet Invisible Conspiracy is an article of faith with you, so I will leave you alone. I wasn't having a go at you personally, so please try not to get so angry when I point out some general observations about conspiracy theorists, after spending many, many hours observing conspiracy theorists and their sites and talking to them over the last 10 months. I get, as I said, about 10 people a week trying to convert me, and it is kind of fascinating. Great material for a book.

You really should understand the concept of mirroring that Fela Fan has spoken about. Cos a few on these boards engage in it almost obsessively, especially when a "conspiraloon" (how insidious that term) gets close to showing evidence that is irrefutable.

Everything you accuse me of, you are guilty of yourself. You have a belief system that absolutely does not allow for a USG conspiracy surrounding 9/11.

That's a belief system as absolute as any fundamentalist God believer.

Then you say that you are not angry but go on to say I am angry. So, in the interests of fairness, let's make it a two-way mirror.

I find it funny too

I'm not trying to convert anyone, just stating why I am suspicious of the events of 9/11. I'm not asking you to take my word on it, just not to discount it out of hand.

My beliefs have nothing to do with "articles" of faith and are not immutable. They are based on observations, but ones which do not satisfy the editors filtered version of what constitutes reputable sources (anything that says that suspicion of 9/11 is conspiraloonery) or sound evidence.

 

[squeegee]

Ah, you've decided to join in with this bullshit too!

Great. Let's see you back it up!

So who are these "multi national corporations" I'm currently working for please? Names, if you please!

And what actual evidence have you to support for the defamatory claim that my present employment has somehow 'compromised' my right to express myself freely?

I'm fed up with mouthy dickheads posting up clueless slurs about my personal life, so it's time to show up or shut the fuck up.

From your website. An interview with the Daily Telegraph.

"He has worked for Head New Media on sites for Snickers and Internet providers Direct Connection, employing the same graphic verve that makes Urban75 so entertaining. "I could only work for companies I think are cool, though," he states. "I couldn't under any amount of duress do a McDonalds or a Shell site. I'm an Internet designer but I'm also a campaigner - the two have to go hand in hand."

That would be snickers a subsidiary of mars corporation, would it. If there's another snickers, or if you worked for free, I'll be happy to retract and apologise.

And if it is, I love the way you think McDonalds is uncool, but a bar of high fat, chemical-saturated, processed sugar "chocolate" bar that leads to obesity in children, "cool".

I await your reply.