New 'left-wing' think tank....

[chilango]

Hitler was a vegetarian.

 

[butchersapron]

Hitler was a vegetarian.

I heard he was genuine too. Drew up some plans in the same room as workers.

 

[chilango]

Grocer's daughter.

 

[Random]

You might not have mentioned her class background, but Treelover referred to her background as "well-upholstered".

I wasn't talking about her background, but about the kind of safe leftist bubble that she, and other similar professional/trustafarian lefties, live in.

 

[butchersapron]

I wasn't talking about her background, but about the kind of safe leftist bubble that she, and other similar professional/trustafarian lefties, live in.

They even sponsor people from working class backgrounds in order to make the bubble appear more grounded.

 

[chilango]

They even sponsor people from working class backgrounds in order to make the bubble more grounded.

Genuine/authentic

 

[butchersapron]

That's the one!

Genuine/authentic

 

[articul8]

To what extent is that then?

You're a bit like jesus and she's a bit like marx. Fucking hell.

where have i said either of those things?

 

[butchersapron]

where have i said either of those things?

It's for others to say isn't it?

Any progress on what 'working with' actually means? Given that it's supposed to be your model of how to proceed and all that.

 

[chilango]

I've "worked with" millionaires. Can I join the cabinet?

 

[articul8]

Jesus and Marx would have made a pretty formidabble team - which is no doubt why liberation theology was thought so alarming.

I've not referred to a single "model" - I'm interested in learning more about the whole process and other attempts to overcome the split between intellectual and workers in a practical political context

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus and Marx would have made a pretty formidabble team - which is no doubt why liberation theology was thought so alarming.

I've not referred to a single "model" - I'm interested in learning more about the whole process and other attempts to overcome the split between intellectual and workers in a practical political context

Secretly jesus.

And yet you are unable to say anything whatsoever about how your preferred example of this overcoming actually worked. Nothing.

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus and Marx would have made a pretty formidabble team - which is no doubt why liberation theology was thought so alarming.

Yeah, no doubt. No doubt at all.

 

[love detective]

I wasn't talking about her background, but about the kind of safe leftist bubble that she, and other similar professional/trustafarian lefties, live in.

I remember a couple of years ago the IWCA were looking to put on some kind of 'autopsy' & 'way forward' type conference which was going to be scheduled for the 25th anniversary of the end of the miners strike

As part of that there was a meeting arranged with Hilary and another couple of dignitaries from the Red Pepper editorial board, to see if there was some common ground that could be found and look to have them getting involved, possibly as one of the sponsors of the thing.

While the discussion itself was not that bad (although thoroughly predictable) - the non-verbal aspects of it said so much more about the thing. Firstly, despite agreeing the time to meet (in some bar at an education centre) and us arriving promptly and on time, we were made to wait like spare pricks for a good half an hour or so until Hilary & Co had finished talking to their minions on the magazine. Then when we were finally allowed to grace her presence, the only seating made available to us were 4 little stools in a row in front of the 'panel' who were sat on normal sized seats, which meant throughout the whole meeting we were physically at a lower level to the RP dignitaries. And then for the first twenty minutes or so of the meeting, Hilary sat typing on her laptop, checking her emails and eating crisps, while only occasionally giving some kind of signal that she was actually listening to what was being said to her

Actions certainly spoke louder than words on that evening

 

[articul8]

Secretly jesus.

And yet you are unable to say anything whatsoever about how your preferred example of this overcoming actually worked. Nothing.

I am able to say a good deal about the outcome - but don't pretend to know the ins and outs of how the process worked, although I'm keen to know more. This is the thing with you - I assume from your interest in the Italian autonomists that you know a shitload about attempts to work with workers in the context of factory councils etc. But rather than positively relate the successes or limits of that experience you want to carp at how far short of this everyone's elses efforts have been.

 

[articul8]

I remember a couple of years ago the IWCA were looking to put on some kind of 'autopsy' & 'way forward' type conference which was going to be scheduled for the 25th anniversary of the end of the miners strike

As part of that there was a meeting arranged with Hilary and another couple of dignitaries from the Red Pepper editorial board, to see if there was some common ground that could be found and look to have them getting involved, possibly as one of the sponsors of the thing.

It wasn't "dignatories" you daft twat- you clearly don't remember - it was me and another co-editor

Firstly, despite agreeing the time to meet (in some bar at an education centre) and us arriving promptly and on time, we were made to wait like spare pricks for a good half an hour or so until Hilary & Co had finished talking to their minions on the magazine.

No offence intended - in fact Hilary has just learnt shocking time management skills, presumably from her latin american comrades (Manana..). Waiting about like spare pricks is often a result of this. It pisses me off as well - I'm quite Stakhanovite re timekeeping.

Then when we were finally allowed to grace her presence, the only seating made available to us where 4 little stools in a row in front of the 'panel' who were sat on normal sized seats, which meant throughout the whole meeting we were physically at a lower level to the RP dignitaries. And then for the first twenty minutes or so of the meeting, Hilary sat typing on her laptop, checking her emails and eating crisps, while only occasionally giving some kind of signal that she was actually listening to what was being said to her

This was a public bar - we didn't "make available" inferior seats! It was just the spare table that we could all sit down FFS! Hilary's annoying meeting etiquette was a result of the informality of it. I've now learnt that she needs to be subjected to a measure of proletarian discipline when it comes to meetings!!!

 

[butchersapron]

I am able to say a good deal about the outcome - but don't pretend to know the ins and outs of how the process worked, although I'm keen to know more. This is the thing with you - I assume from your interest in the Italian autonomists that you know a shitload about attempts to work with workers in the context of factory councils etc. But rather than positively relate the successes or limits of that experience you want to carp at how far short of this everyone's elses efforts have been.

Who mentioned the outcome? I mentioned the process. You are unable to say a damn thing about it despite offering it as an example of 'working with'. (and i know exactly what the process actually was having a number of the stewards as mates). If you imagine that Hilary deigning to meet shop stewards is on the same level or is an example of the workers self-organisation at Porto Marghera then you're even more deluded than i first thought. If this example is so fruitful you must surely be able to say why - and why HW's 'working with' was crucial. That doesn't mean tell me why the idea of an alternative plan is/was good, but how the 'intellectuals' involvement helped. Is this how you think 'intellectuals' should respond to their role and activity being questioned? I thought you were a red hot militant?

 

[butchersapron]

It wasn't "dignatories" you daft twat- you clearly don't remember - it was me and another co-editor


No offence intended - in fact Hilary has just learnt shocking time management skills, presumably from her latin american comrades (Manana..). Waiting about like spare pricks is often a result of this. It pisses me off as well - I'm quite Stakhanovite re timekeeping.



This was a public bar - we didn't "make available" inferior seats! It was just the spare table that we could all sit down FFS! Hilary's annoying meeting etiquette was a result of the informality of it. I've now learnt that she needs to be subjected to a measure of proletarian discipline when it comes to meetings!!!

Yes, humour the boss. It's just her way.

 

[Random]

No offence intended - in fact Hilary has just learnt shocking time management skills, presumably from her latin american comrades (Manana..). Waiting about like spare pricks is often a result of this. It pisses me off as well - I'm quite Stakhanovite re timekeeping.

Rather than going all Jeremy Clarkson vs the mexicans about it, isn't it more likely that her acting like other people's time is less important, is that she's head of a magazine and also one of the trustees of a fund that doles out money to people. You know, a class issue?

 

[articul8]

I don't know enough about the process to comment with any degree of certainty. If the experience of your mates was one of frustration/annoyance etc with the "intellectuals" that is interesting, and It would be good to know why and how such barriers could be overcome. Or where analogous efforts to put "intellectual" skills at the disposal of working class people has been achieved more succesfully.

 

[articul8]

Rather than going all Jeremy Clarkson vs the mexicans about it, isn't it more likely that her acting like other people's time is less important, is that she's head of a magazine and also one of the trustees of a fund that doles out money to people. You know, a class issue?

Eagleton has a good line in defence of identifying shared national/cultural behavioural traits, so not apologising there...(Latin Americans just don't have the same disciplined attitude to timekeeping). You could say that she was being MORE democratic - spending time talking to young people who had volunteered to write and help out a bit - when a really important delegation of IWCA types was waiting to bestow their precious analysis on us.

 

[Random]

Eagleton has a good line in defence of identifying shared national/cultural behavioural traits, so not apologising there...(Latin Americans just don't have the same disciplined attitude to timekeeping). You could say that she was being MORE democratic - spending time talking to young people who had volunteered to write and help out a bit - when a really important delegation of IWCA types was waiting to bestow their precious analysis on us.

Jesus fucking christ

 

[butchersapron]

Eagleton has a good line in defence of identifying shared national/cultural behavioural traits, so not apologising there...(Latin Americans just don't have the same disciplined attitude to timekeeping). You could say that she was being MORE democratic - spending time talking to young people who had volunteered to write and help out a bit - when a really important delegation of IWCA types was waiting to bestow their precious analysis on us.

That's not a defence, that's just saying that's just how they are. And it's a prioritising of your shit mag and its role not of 'young people' or democracy.

 

[Random]

Jesus fucking christ

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus fucking christ

That's for others to say.

 

[butchersapron]

I DO SO LOVE THE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THEIR ENERGY.

 

[Random]

Class doesn't affect rich lefties, because Marx.

 

[articul8]

That's not a defence, that's just saying that's just how they are.

As a materialist, would it surprise you that people who have shared a similar climate, language(s), religious culture over centuries, etc etc would exhibit certain behavioural traits in common?

 

[articul8]

Class doesn't affect rich lefties, because Marx.

it might to a great extent, it might to a negligible extent. If Marx was around today, you lot would be saying "it's ok for him he's married into the aristocracy of Westphalia" and how he spends ages reading works of political economy rather than going down the mines.

 

[Random]

As a materialist, would it surprise you that people who have shared a similar climate, language(s), religious culture over centuries, etc etc would exhibit certain behavioural traits in common?

How long did Hilary Wainwright share this climate? As opposed to her entire life as an upper middle class leftie, I mean.