New 'left-wing' think tank....

[ayatollah]

You, and your IWCA mates. It's all over the shop. Melanchon thread. 21st century fascism thread. Every fucking thread.

I have to say articul8, that I too had only got this same core message from all too many of the x million posts by Butchersapron over the last few years, which appear to be as you say;

1.The Left is permanently fucked, doomed forever to be the preserve of middle class tossers,
2.Socialism is a redundant philosophy with nothing new to say,
3.The Far Right are the only guys with anything new or relevant to say and are pretty much unstoppable as a political force :

oh, and, the constant recommendation that we all "get out there on the landings and promote pro working class policies" (whatever they are in the absence of a socialist internationalist agenda)

Sorry Butchers, I'm no fan of articul8's "stay in/join the Labour party and help turn it Left" strategy, but that IS how so many of your contributions come across .

articul 8 is in the LP now, but he IS undoubtedly a socialist philosophically, so he is a potential ally and comrade when , or if, UK politics splinters and restructures in the years to come as the crisis deepens. But what are you ?

 

[butchersapron]

1.The Left is permanently fucked, doomed forever to be the preserve of middle class tossers,
2.Socialism is a redundant philosophy with nothing new to say,
3.The Far Right are the only guys with anything new or relevant to say and are pretty much unstoppable as a political force :

1. Seems to be correct
2. Never thought this, never argued it - argued the exact opposite
3. Never thought this, never argued it - argued the exact opposite.

(I'd like you to back up these characterisations as well - last time i asked you questions like this you dissapeared for a month - let's see if you can do better this time)

What have you got to convince me otherwise on point 1?

What am i? To who?

 

[articul8]

Ok we're getting somewhere...

HOW could socialism be rearticulated (irrespective of whether we use the term itself) in order to be relevant to the w/c today, and cut across the growth of the far right?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course, they were a very different party when i was/wasn't a member, did/didn't support it/them/him/her.

Interesting and articul8 post, that.

 

[DaveCinzano]

He's like the Uncle Albert of the LP.

 

[Idris2002]

Pain for Hain.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I have to say articul8, that I too had only got this same core message from all too many of the x million posts by Butchersapron over the last few years, which appear to be as you say;

1.The Left is permanently fucked, doomed forever to be the preserve of middle class tossers,

In parliamentary terms, this is destined to be the case for the foreseeable future, not least because of the social immobility the last couple of crops of parliamentary "middle class tossers" have cemented in place.

2.Socialism is a redundant philosophy with nothing new to say,

Can't say that I've ever seen him post anything remotely resembling that.
He's said similar about the Labour party, but they don't really qualify as "socialist", do they?

3.The Far Right are the only guys with anything new or relevant to say and are pretty much unstoppable as a political force :

More that the far right are faced with a set of economic and social circumstances that, if they were a bit more coherent, they could use to considerable advantage. We can't always depend on them shooting themselves in the foot, just like we won't always be able to depend on swamping constituencies with activists a la Barking & Dagenham in order to head the far right off from attempting to legitimate themselves as a political force through the electoral system.

oh, and, the constant recommendation that we all "get out there on the landings and promote pro working class policies" (whatever they are in the absence of a socialist internationalist agenda)

They're the stuff you engage in (local/community activism) before you start worrying about internationalism. Set your own house in order, etc.

 

[love detective]

exactly - how you meant to be relevant, or taken seriously, internationally while you're an irrelevance in your own backyard

 

[treelover]

from job title it looks like his role is more about pushing the findings and promoting it through the media than the actual research and thought side, which i agree he would be poor at (regardless of politics).

imo what is needed far more than think tank pish is an anti-neo liberal taxpayers alliance type organisation: ten people trawling the internet and making FOI requests that set a different narrative than the dominant neo liberal one of the last 5-30 years. media would not run so easily with stories, but what TPA have realised and made massive easy wins from is that the press are lazy and/or understaffed, and love a really simple cheap ready made hit-job story.

I liked this, but your bit about the press liking ready packaged stories, etc, they do and will use them, but its more likely if it suits/reflects their prejudices, values, etc.

 

[treelover]

exactly - how you meant to be relevant, or taken seriously, internationally while you're an irrelevance in your own backyard

You could be talking about the Socialist Unity grouping, just look at their recent postings..

 

[love detective]

i'd rather not

 

[treelover]

I think I do understand what you're driving at - that however broad and clued-up the make-up, a remote, nationally centred (in London) group of people who decide what kind of subjects they're interested in and what kinds of questions they want to ask, are inevitably do-gooders bringing something (loaded with their own assumptions) to the great unwashed and "involving" people into a project over which they have no real ownership.

I accept there is a big danger of this. It would be better, ideally, to start at the other end altogether - not with the composition of the "experts" but with the needs/problems/aspirations of the community - your mum and her neighbours. They should be the ones deciding what their problems are, thinking about what might be necessary to solve them, and what if any technical expertise they might require to be better equipped.

OK, yes. But these things don't necessarily emerge organically. And there are lots of barriers to making it work.

for all the good work say Hilary Wainwright has done, and she has, she is basically scared of working class people, unless they are in say Brazil...

 

[treelover]

I think I do understand what you're driving at - that however broad and clued-up the make-up, a remote, nationally centred (in London) group of people who decide what kind of subjects they're interested in and what kinds of questions they want to ask, are inevitably do-gooders bringing something (loaded with their own assumptions) to the great unwashed and "involving" people into a project over which they have no real ownership.

I accept there is a big danger of this. It would be better, ideally, to start at the other end altogether - not with the composition of the "experts" but with the needs/problems/aspirations of the community - your mum and her neighbours. They should be the ones deciding what their problems are, thinking about what might be necessary to solve them, and what if any technical expertise they might require to be better equipped.

OK, yes. But these things don't necessarily emerge organically. And there are lots of barriers to making it work.

thats what Wainwright has focused on for many years, participatory democracy, etc, largely globally..

 

[articul8]

for all the good work say Hilary Wainwright has done, and she has, she is basically scared of working class people, unless they are in say Brazil...

I don't think that's true at all - she's worked with Lucas Aerospace workers, Newcastle City Council workers, youth workers on housing estates in Luton... I don't think that there is necessarily any confict between an interest in participatory democracy on an international scale and at home (although I accept there's a risk of NLR politics where Porto Allegre is fascinating but Hartlepool or Reading are frightful).

 

[butchersapron]

'worked with' - what does this mean? Wrote about? Talked to?

 

[Random]

for all the good work say Hilary Wainwright has done, and she has, she is basically scared of working class people, unless they are in say Brazil...

Probably not so much scared, as living in a well-upholstered left wing activist world which is pretty distant to working class concerns.

 

[treelover]

when the bickering pauses, this is quite an illuminating thread...

 

[articul8]

'worked with' - what does this mean? Wrote about? Talked to?

Worked alongside, in discussion and collaboration with... - now OK the Newcastle example might have been mediated by NE Unison structures (I'm not saying there aren't issues here), but Lucas Aerospace was with joint shop stewards committee, and Luton with no particular official structure at all.

Now, in terms of background, education and social milieu she's not w/c, but she doesn't flaunt fake prole credentials. she's drawn into the orbit of official politics/TUs/media etc. because she genuinely wants to open up politics to grassroots democratic initiatives. But yes Ssme of her friends are exceptionally posh liberal-minded Hampstead/Primrose Hill types who are indeed a world away from w/c life. Contradictions like this are a product of class society. But she's sound.

 

[butchersapron]

So 'worked with' means talked to then, let's get this clear. Or does it mean something else?

I didn't mention her class background. You seem a little defensive on that front. Does she count as your employer?

 

[Frances Lengel]

I have to say articul8, that I too had only got this same core message from all too many of the x million posts by Butchersapron over the last few years, which appear to be as you say;

1.The Left is permanently fucked, doomed forever to be the preserve of middle class tossers,
2.Socialism is a redundant philosophy with nothing new to say,
3.The Far Right are the only guys with anything new or relevant to say and are pretty much unstoppable as a political force :

oh, and, the constant recommendation that we all "get out there on the landings and promote pro working class policies" (whatever they are in the absence of a socialist internationalist agenda)

Sorry Butchers, I'm no fan of articul8's "stay in/join the Labour party and help turn it Left" strategy, but that IS how so many of your contributions come across .

articul 8 is in the LP now, but he IS undoubtedly a socialist philosophically, so he is a potential ally and comrade when , or if, UK politics splinters and restructures in the years to come as the crisis deepens. But what are you?

Drunk as a mop.

 

[butchersapron]

Worked alongside, in discussion and collaboration with... - now OK the Newcastle example might have been mediated by NE Unison structures (I'm not saying there aren't issues here), but Lucas Aerospace was with joint shop stewards committee, and Luton with no particular official structure at all.

Now, in terms of background, education and social milieu she's not w/c, but she doesn't flaunt fake prole credentials. she's drawn into the orbit of official politics/TUs/media etc. because she genuinely wants to open up politics to grassroots democratic initiatives. But yes Ssme of her friends are exceptionally posh liberal-minded Hampstead/Primrose Hill types who are indeed a world away from w/c life. Contradictions like this are a product of class society. But she's sound.

Geuninely. I love how all analysis disappears in the face of genuinicty.

 

[articul8]

So 'worked with' means talked to then, let's get this clear. Or does it mean something else?

I didn't mention her class background. You seem a little defensive on that front. Does she count as your employer?

She's not my employer, no. On Lucas Aerospace, she actively collaborated with the JSSC in helping them draw together an alternative plan for restructing the workplace around production to meet social need. You might not have mentioned her class background, but Treelover referred to her background as "well-upholstered".

 

[articul8]

Geuninely. I love how all analysis disappears in the face of genuinicty.

Well - I don't know many people whose political judgement I respect who are also total cunts in person (can work the other way round to some extent though I guess)

 

[chilango]

Geuninely. I love how all analysis disappears in the face of genuinicty.

Authenticity is a key value in cultural capital.

 

[butchersapron]

She's not my employer, no. On Lucas Aerospace, she actively collaborated with the JSSC in helping them draw together an alternative plan for restructing the workplace around production to meet social need. You might not have mentioned her class background, but Treelover referred to her background as "well-upholstered".

Tell me how she collaborated on drawing up the alternative plan. What did she do?

treelover might well have done. Did i? How do you think her class background is effecting the way that she acts politically as you brought it up.

 

[treelover]

She's not my employer, no. On Lucas Aerospace, she actively collaborated with the JSSC in helping them draw together an alternative plan for restructing the workplace around production to meet social need. You might not have mentioned her class background, but Treelover referred to her background as "well-upholstered".

er, no I didn't...

 

[butchersapron]

Authenticity is a key value in cultural capital.

Yep, and as result it's one of the more damaging and unoticed ways that power works and how it gets people to act for it.

 

[articul8]

I don't know enough about her exact methodology - I'll ask her about it.

I didn't "bring it up" - someone else did. But no doubt it influences her to the same kind of extent that it influenced people like Marx.

 

[articul8]

er, no I didn't...

apols Treelover, it was Random who said that

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know enough about her exact methodology - I'll ask her about it.

I didn't "bring it up" - someone else did. But no doubt it influences her to the same kind of extent that it influenced people like Marx.

To what extent is that then?

You're a bit like jesus and she's a bit like marx. Fucking hell.