Nanothermite and the World Trade Center

[existentialist]

I also love the fact that they see the fact that this has a much lower auto ignition temperature than is the case with all known commercial thermites as evidence that this is some unknown super thermite material rather than just evidence that it's not a deliberately produced form of thermite at all, just a mixture of the iron based remnants of various parts of the building structure.

For one very simple reason, and one that highlights the complete opposite of science that is the conspiraloon's reasoning.

The facts don't support the preconceived notion, therefore they must be wrong.

It's as simple as that. Jazzz's line of reasoning (I use the word advisedly) leads him, by the nose, to a conclusion that the building must have been destroyed with nanothermite, so every possible scrap of evidence which might support this conclusion gets extra weight; any scrap of evidence to the contrary is summarily dismissed, often quite sneeringly (projection being a big part of Jazzz's mindset here ).

 

[Maurice Picarda]

E2A: Or is it due to the arrogance of troofers (who mostly seem to hail from the US, Canada and the UK) that they assume that groups like Al-Qaida do not have the brains to work out how to best fly a 180 tonne airliner into a major structure in such a way as to guarantee it's collapse?

Wasn't there some evidence to suggest that OBL was as surprised as he was delighted that the buildings collapsed?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Wasn't there some evidence to suggest that OBL was as surprised as he was delighted that the buildings collapsed?

I seem to recall there was a record of a conversation he had with someone or other where he said that his background in engineering led him to believe they might collapse but that he wasn't banking on it. I saw this about 11 years ago so can't remember precisely what was said but that was the general gist.

 

[free spirit]

I seem to recall there was a record of a conversation he had with someone or other where he said that his background in engineering led him to believe they might collapse but that he wasn't banking on it. I saw this about 11 years ago so can't remember precisely what was said but that was the general gist.

I think that was in a couple of pretty detailed books on AQ that I read a few years back as well, though that was probably taken from US intelligence information, so would be dismissed as being biased by the loons.

 

[Crispy]

I didn't see the collapse coming on the day, but I didn't know about the particular structural design of the towers at the time. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have been surprised.

 

[Jazzz]

This is just rusty specs of steel

from Harrit's reply to Denis Rancourt:

ANSWER: Sensational. According to your suggestion, when you heat rust, elemental iron is formed. I look forward to the publication of this hypothesis in – say - Journal of Inorganic Chemistry (an ACS publication). If supported by observation(!) - be sure it will be accepted promptly and be widely recognized. Next time you present this hypothesis, the least you can do is to provide it with proper references and observations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45837672/101220-Answer-to-Denis-Rancourt-1

 

[frogwoman]

I seem to recall there was a record of a conversation he had with someone or other where he said that his background in engineering led him to believe they might collapse but that he wasn't banking on it. I saw this about 11 years ago so can't remember precisely what was said but that was the general gist.

yes, but that's what THEY want you to think.

 

[SpineyNorman]

yes, but that's what THEY want you to think.

The devious stripey only come out at night bastards

 

[free spirit]

from Harrit's reply to Denis Rancourt:

ANSWER: Sensational. According to your suggestion, when you heat rust, elemental iron is formed. I look forward to the publication of this hypothesis in – say - Journal of Inorganic Chemistry (an ACS publication). If supported by observation(!) - be sure it will be accepted promptly and be widely recognized. Next time you present this hypothesis, the least you can do is to provide it with proper references and observations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45837672/101220-Answer-to-Denis-Rancourt-1

When you heat rust in the presence of aluminium then elemental iron is formed, this is the exact chemical reaction that takes place in commercial thermite, as I've already shown.

As there's nothing even slightly new or interesting in this equation, I really don't see that the Journal of Inorganic Chemistry are likely to publish a paper on the subject.

Perhaps Harrit would like to try submitting his hypothesis to the Journal of Inorganic Chemistry, see how far he gets with it.

Chemical reaction for thermite reaction​

​

2 Al + Fe2O3 ↠>>> Al2O3 + 2 Fe​

​

​

chemical reaction for rust​

Iron + water + oxygen

rust​

4 Fe(s) + 6 H2O(l) + 3 O2(g)

4 Fe(OH)3(s)​

Iron(III) hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 then dehydrates to produce Fe2O3.nH2O(s) or rust​

 

[free spirit]

from Harrit's reply to Denis Rancourt:

ANSWER: Sensational. According to your suggestion, when you heat rust, elemental iron is formed. I look forward to the publication of this hypothesis in – say - Journal of Inorganic Chemistry (an ACS publication). If supported by observation(!) - be sure it will be accepted promptly and be widely recognized. Next time you present this hypothesis, the least you can do is to provide it with proper references and observations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45837672/101220-Answer-to-Denis-Rancourt-1

oh, I see you didn't bother to quote the statement this was a shite response to, where an actual materials scientist who actually seems to know what he's talking about explains in detail the process at work here, which is known to cause an exothermic reaction at around the 400 dec c temperature an unidentified exothermic reaction was identified in the analysis.

ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESIS: Here is an alternative explanation for the observationsreported by Harrit et al.Steel rusts. Rust crusts crack and blow off the steel when physically disrupted.Rusting steel is one of the most studied materials science problems in engineering.

When steel rusts in a humid building environment it grows a crust composed of layers of different Fe-oxides and Fe-oxyhydroxides. These are stratified micro-layers withsuccessive layers of different Fe-oxides species (wustite, maghemite, hematite, etc.).

In a humid atmosphere the outer layers will be Fe-oxyhydroxides such as goethite,lepidocrocite and akaganeite. The latter three Fe-oxyhydroxides have the same chemicalformula: FeOOH, and differ only in their crystal structures.5

These Fe-oxyhydroxides typically form as nanoparticles and have the same needle andnanoflake-like morphologies as observed here.When these Fe-oxyhydroxides are heated in a DSC they undergo a solid to solidexothermic reaction of dehydroxilation (loss of OH) and transform from FeOOH to Fe2O3(hematite) at a temperature of approximately 400 C. The temperature of thetransformation can vary depending on exact chemical composition, and on the crystalstructure, but it is always at approximately 400 C.
Looks like our boys may have been discovering the properties of rusted steel. Steel contains C and Si which would end up in its oxidation products, especially in theoxyhydroxid

I'm no materials scientist, so I'll happily defer to this guys interpretation of the likely reaction that's been witnessed.

My point stands though that these particles are just particles of rusty steel from the building, and that the fact that they all gave similar reactions clearly indicates that there's nothing unusual about it, and that these can't possibly be some artificially introduced factor because they're present in far too high a volume, and no steel based particles were found that didn't display these characteristics, which would be virtually impossible in a massive steel framed building containing around 200,000 tonnes of steel - this stuff can't possibly just disappear, it has to be present in the dust samples.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[Jazzz]

When you heat rust in the presence of aluminium then elemental iron is formed, this is the exact chemical reaction that takes place in commercial thermite, as I've already shown.

Right, but you are not suggesting that you can heat rust by itself to create elemental iron?

Hence the particles found by Harrit are not rust.

 

[equationgirl]

from Harrit's reply to Denis Rancourt:

ANSWER: Sensational. According to your suggestion, when you heat rust, elemental iron is formed. I look forward to the publication of this hypothesis in – say - Journal of Inorganic Chemistry (an ACS publication). If supported by observation(!) - be sure it will be accepted promptly and be widely recognized. Next time you present this hypothesis, the least you can do is to provide it with proper references and observations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45837672/101220-Answer-to-Denis-Rancourt-1

That's Harrit's response to legitimate questions raised by Denis Rancourt, a noted professor of Physics at the University of Ottawa until a dispute with his employer lead to his dismissal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Rancourt

It's not scientific fact, Jazzz, it's Harrit becoming aggressive and angry with Rancourt for questioning his theories.

 

[Jazzz]

That's Harrit's response to legitimate questions raised by Denis Rancourt, a noted professor of Physics at the University of Ottawa until a dispute with his employer lead to his dismissal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Rancourt

It's not scientific fact, Jazzz, it's Harrit becoming aggressive and angry with Rancourt for questioning his theories.

I'm not sure you are making any sense here. If you are saying that it is not scientific fact that heating rust creates elemental iron, then you are agreeing with Harrit. Otherwise please explain what you actually mean.

 

[Yossarian]

Right, but you are not suggesting that you can heat rust by itself to create elemental iron?

Hence the particles found by Harrit are not rust.

What did you study in university before you dropped out, Jazzz? Was it metallurgy?

 

[existentialist]

I'm not sure you are making any sense here. If you are saying that it is not scientific fact that heating rust creates elemental iron, then you are agreeing with Harrit. Otherwise please explain what you actually mean.

I think you are asking someone else to explain your own failure of understanding here. Contrary to what you seem to be trying to insinuate, the science on this is not ambiguous, no matter how much your pet theories might want it to be, and the metallurgy of rust and metal oxides in general is neither controversial nor poorly understood.

What you need to do - assuming you want to persist in your quasi-expert-metallurgist role, instead of demanding that others with a clearly greater grasp of the subject than you do so on your behalf - is to skill up on the basic chemistry, so that you don't start posturing and insisting that people prove things which, to anyone with the most trivial grasp of chemistry, are either obvious or easily deduced.

Why on earth should everyone else do your running around for you, and compensate for your deficits in knowledge? Especially when it is clear that you have such a hubristic idea about the depth and breadth of your own skills - or your ability to assess that in others - that the idea of your complete incompetence in any area is evidently completely unthinkable?

It should not be necessary for everyone else to have to conduct a forensic proof of the fact that the objects you hold to your ears are not made of electronic components, but are in fact coconut shells.

 

[editor]

Seeing as the US government have apparently found a simple and 100% effective way of demolishing huge buildings that involves no drilling, preparation or any noticeable, observable changes to the entire structure, does anyone know why the demolition industry hasn't adopted this as standard?

I mean why would they still fanny about with months and months of preparation, methodically stripping back structural parts, carefully inserting explosives and running miles of cables around buildings when they could just demolish it the quick'n'easy WTC way?

 

[equationgirl]

I'm not sure you are making any sense here. If you are saying that it is not scientific fact that heating rust creates elemental iron, then you are agreeing with Harrit. Otherwise please explain what you actually mean.

I'll use the short words again, Jazzz.

What you quote is Harrit's opinion. It's not fact. He doesn't like Rancourt asking questions.

When you heat rust in the presence of aluminium then elemental iron is formed, this is the exact chemical reaction that takes place in commercial thermite, as I've already shown.

As there's nothing even slightly new or interesting in this equation, I really don't see that the Journal of Inorganic Chemistry are likely to publish a paper on the subject.

Perhaps Harrit would like to try submitting his hypothesis to the Journal of Inorganic Chemistry, see how far he gets with it.

Chemical reaction for thermite reaction​

​

2 Al + Fe2O3 ↠>>> Al2O3 + 2 Fe​

​

​

chemical reaction for rust​

Iron + water + oxygen

rust​

4 Fe(s) + 6 H2O(l) + 3 O2(g)

4 Fe(OH)3(s)​

Iron(III) hydroxide, Fe(OH)3 then dehydrates to produce Fe2O3.nH2O(s) or rust​

Free spirit clearly states the chemical reaction going on. Harrit doesn't believe the basic chemistry at work, in his response, and behaves aggressively when Rancourt explains what's going on.

For the record, I agree with Free Spirit (and hence Rancourt) - heating rust in the presence of aluminium will form elemental iron. It's basic chemistry.

 

[JimW]

A lot of those pioneering chemists were Jewish, mind

 

[Jazzz]

For the record, I agree with Free Spirit (and hence Rancourt) - heating rust in the presence of aluminium will form elemental iron. It's basic chemistry.

Everyone agrees with that!

The point is, the particles that Harrit found burn all by themselves to create elemental iron. Hence, they are not rust particles.

 

[existentialist]

Everyone agrees with that!

The point is, the particles that Harrit found burn all by themselves to create elemental iron. Hence, they are not rust particles.

Remind me of where you qualified in chemistry/metallurgy again?

 

[Jazzz]

Haven't seen this link before - backyard experiments prove that thermite can cut steel columns:

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

How and when was the thermite installed in the building jazzz?

 

[binka]

Remind me of where you qualified in chemistry/metallurgy again?

who needs 'qualifications' these days when youtube allows anyone to become an expert?

 

[twentythreedom]

boring shit is boring

 

[Superdupastupor]

A lot of those pioneering chemists were Jewish, mind

judishe physik and all that.

And that's the thing: The conspiracy theorist shares a mindset with the totalitarian: anything that supports the ideology is promoted and accepted, anything that contradicts them is ignored and an alternative truth takes its place.

 

[equationgirl]

Haven't seen this link before - backyard experiments prove that thermite can cut steel columns:

It's not denied that thermite can cut columns, it's just that for the World Trade Centre you'd need thousands of tons of the stuff. Thousands upon thousands of tons snuck into the building unobserved.

Also it's known thermite burns chaotically, not in neat lines like an acetylene torch.

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

 

[free spirit]

It's not denied that thermite can cut columns, it's just that for the World Trade Centre you'd need thousands of tons of the stuff. Thousands upon thousands of tons snuck into the building unobserved.

Also it's known thermite burns chaotically, not in neat lines like an acetylene torch.

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

see, I don't think you would need that much of it if strategically placed.... actually I don't think you need any at all as the planes brought it down, but... anyway, what you would need thousands of tonnes of it for would be to have it be found in the concentrations that it was allegedly found in in several different dust samples.

 

[free spirit]

actually you'd also need thousands of tonnes of it if you were going to have to place it on most floors of the building so that it actually collapsed around the point the planes hit at.

I mean it'd have looked a bit off for it to have collapsed from 50 floors below the point the planes hit because they guessed wrong about where to put the nanothermite.

 

[Nylock]

Wasn't there some evidence to suggest that OBL was as surprised as he was delighted that the buildings collapsed?

When i heard about the first (and subsequent) wtc attack, i hadn't seen the news reports or anything and i thought it was some lone nutter in a light aircraft. When i saw the news images of that airliner hitting the building i did genuinely think that it was going to collapse imminently... And then i saw the second airliner hit... The thing i was most surprised at was how long the buildings actually lasted until they eventually did collapse... So, OBL surprised at them collapsing at all, me being surprised that they lasted as long as they did before they collapsed... What does this prove? Nothing.

...Except maybe that had they actually used nanothermite, the WTC towers might have collapsed a lot sooner than they actually did.