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myers briggs - what are you ?

As far as I can tell, all the research shows that F and T are entirely separate - i.e. you can be lots of both or not much of either. There's no evidence that it's an either/or thing as this test asserts.
Like I said, it needs to be taken with a substantial pinch of salt, but I don't think it's completely useless. Having said that, it's not something I'd ever use in my therapeutic practice, although I do sometimes explore the introvert/extrovert thing with clients.
 
What do you mean by stable context?

To answer this, it's probably best to start by describing why the underlying conceptualisation of MBTI is flawed. Its model is of humans is as contained, self-sufficient, individual "monads", entire unto themselves, who come complete with stable attitudes that they then then bring to each context. It thus imagines social contexts as a collection of these pre-formed monads, who play out interactions driven by the stable attributes they have brought.

There are a lot of reasons why this kind of model doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and I'm going to illustrate in a minute one of these ways using the way MBTI works.

An alternative view of humanity is that the fundamental unit is not the individual but the relationship. You are born into a system of relationships and from that moment on, you are never not in some kind of relationship. You rely on these relationships to survive and to thrive. It's the primary evolutionary characteristic of the human -- no other animal, for example could coordinate to carry a wardrobe between them around a corner but humans can do this kind of thing without even speaking. We understand the world through our relationships, they are not layered on top. It isn't that we bring ourselves as individuals to a context, it is the context that determines who we are.

There are a lot of ways in which this understanding of humanity has been interpreted. One is the idea that we have common-sense, shared notions of complex social concepts in terms things like the values and behaviours that underlie them; the sharing of these common-sense notions is what allows coherence within a society (and vice versa where those notions are not shared). Another is that we have multiple social identities in terms of the groups we self-categorise as belonging to, and those social identities come with understandings of how somebody in a group like that would behave and think. The way we behave will depend on which social identity is salient at a given time. Another related interpretation is that society contains roles that we perform, such as the role of "woman".

So let's look at MBTI. A typical question might be something like "I enjoy parties", rated on a scale of 1 to 5. The higher the score, the higher the E rating.

But what is actually happening when you read that question? the first thing is that you have to interpret "parties". This has various cultural implications. The question setter had one thing in mind but you bring your own interpretation when you read that question. Maybe to you, "parties" are massive raves. Maybe they are dinner parties. This will affect how you interpret the question. This is why the culture through which you understand the test will affect the result.

But something more fundamental is happening too. As you read "parties", this triggers the salience of some social identity, and which identity is triggered will depend on your recent experience, the context within which you are answering the test and so on. It may be that your recent context is having been to dinner parties and so when you read "parties", that's what you think. But did you put it on or attend? If you put it on, was it within the context of a heterosexual relationship in which you were the woman and thus ended up doing a lot of the work? If so, reading the question may trigger the memory of performing "woman" in the context of the setting of a dinner party and maybe this is not something you enjoyed. But this had nothing to do with the stable attribute of "extraversion", it was all to do with the labour expected of women in entertaining at home.

Or maybe you play in a band and the "musician" identity has been made salient by reading "parties", because you tend to play at parties. When you perform "musician", it involves playing the part of somebody having fun and so this is what is salient for your positioning with respect to parties. This doesn't give you a stable "extraversion", however, it just means that you are thinking about performing that role.

Now it gets worse, because these identities have been made salient are still salient as you read the next question. Plus, of course, whatever the situation is under which you are performing the test provides in itself the salience of a particular identity.

So you end up with ISTJ, for example, and what does this actually tell you? It tells you that the situation under which you performed the test plus your current social contexts that mediate how you interpret questions result in the salience of various social identities under which you will perform roles consistent with the ISTJ rating. What it doesn't tell you is that there is some kind of essential, stable attiribute external to your relationship systems that will somehow be ISTJ regardless of context.
 
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I like the idea it gets people reflecting on themselves (same reason I like horoscopes and tarot) but don't like the idea that most people have static personalities in any way. I'm more likely to push back against this sort of thing because due to a mix of being a woman, a bit foreign, disabled and from a 'rough' background, I'm constantly getting pigeonholed and labelled into certain roles and personality traits. They don't have to be offensive or even false for it to be damaging.
 
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The particular problem with the Myers Briggs test is that unlike typical metrics used by clinicians to e.g. diagnose personality disorders, the MBTI is a registered trade mark of the Myers & Briggs Foundation whose sole purpose is to produce propaganda to promote the use of the test. There's also the Center for Application of Psychological Type and the Isabel Briggs Myers Memorial Research Awards both funded for the same purpose.

Regardless of the fact the scientific basis of the test is flawed, its creators have ensured that it's not going to die easily.
 
I like the idea it gets people reflecting on themselves (same reason I like horoscopes and tarot) but don't like the idea that most people have static personalities in any way. I'm more likely to push back against this sort of thing because due to a mix of being a woman, a bit foreign, disabled and from a 'rough' background, I'm constantly getting pigeonholed and labelled into certain roles and personality traits. They don't have to be offensive or even false for it to be damaging.
Exactly this - I've found it helpful for reflecting on what I am good / bad at (or perhaps rather what I find difficult and easy) - and actually when done in a work context it gives you permission to be different to each other and have different strengths without any one categorisation being seen as bad or weaker than the others. This contrasts with a more usual HR approach to forcing round pegs into square holes through trying to get you to 'work on' your weaknesses.
 
Every time I've done one of those tests, I got INTP.

To answer this, it's probably best to start by describing why the underlying conceptualisation of MBTI is flawed. Its model is of humans is as contained, self-sufficient, individual "monads", entire unto themselves, who come complete with stable attitudes that they then then bring to each context. It thus imagines social contexts as a collection of these pre-formed monads, who play out interactions driven by the stable attributes they have brought.

Who says the described attributes are stable? No MBTI test that I've ever taken has made the claim that its results are unchanging over the life time of every individual who takes it. Because that's obviously not true.

An alternative view of humanity is that the fundamental unit is not the individual but the relationship. You are born into a system of relationships and from that moment on, you are never not in some kind of relationship. You rely on these relationships to survive and to thrive. It's the primary evolutionary characteristic of the human -- no other animal, for example could coordinate to carry a wardrobe between them around a corner but humans can do this kind of thing without even speaking. We understand the world through our relationships, they are not layered on top. It isn't that we bring ourselves as individuals to a context, it is the context that determines who we are.

Why not both? Different individuals in the same kind of relationship will behave differently, for various reasons. Humans are not interchangeable in the same way that nuts and bolts are.
 
To answer this, it's probably best to start by describing why the underlying conceptualisation of MBTI is flawed. Its model is of humans is as contained, self-sufficient, individual "monads", entire unto themselves, who come complete with stable attitudes that they then then bring to each context. It thus imagines social contexts as a collection of these pre-formed monads, who play out interactions driven by the stable attributes they have brought.

There are a lot of reasons why this kind of model doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and I'm going to illustrate in a minute one of these ways using the way MBTI works.

An alternative view of humanity is that the fundamental unit is not the individual but the relationship. You are born into a system of relationships and from that moment on, you are never not in some kind of relationship. You rely on these relationships to survive and to thrive. It's the primary evolutionary characteristic of the human -- no other animal, for example could coordinate to carry a wardrobe between them around a corner but humans can do this kind of thing without even speaking. We understand the world through our relationships, they are not layered on top. It isn't that we bring ourselves as individuals to a context, it is the context that determines who we are.

There are a lot of ways in which this understanding of humanity has been interpreted. One is the idea that we have common-sense, shared notions of complex social concepts in terms things like the values and behaviours that underlie them; the sharing of these common-sense notions is what allows coherence within a society (and vice versa where those notions are not shared). Another is that we have multiple social identities in terms of the groups we self-categorise as belonging to, and those social identities come with understandings of how somebody in a group like that would behave and think. The way we behave will depend on which social identity is salient at a given time. Another related interpretation is that society contains roles that we perform, such as the role of "woman".

So let's look at MBTI. A typical question might be something like "I enjoy parties", rated on a scale of 1 to 5. The higher the score, the higher the E rating.

But what is actually happening when you read that question? the first thing is that you have to interpret "parties". This has various cultural implications. The question setter had one thing in mind but you bring your own interpretation when you read that question. Maybe to you, "parties" are massive raves. Maybe they are dinner parties. This will affect how you interpret the question. This is why the culture through which you understand the test will affect the result.

But something more fundamental is happening too. As you read "parties", this triggers the salience of some social identity, and which identity is triggered will depend on your recent experience, the context within which you are answering the test and so on. It may be that your recent context is having been to dinner parties and so when you read "parties", that's what you think. But did you put it on or attend? If you put it on, was it within the context of a heterosexual relationship in which you were the woman and thus ended up doing a lot of the work? If so, reading the question may trigger the memory of performing "woman" in the context of the setting of a dinner party and maybe this is not something you enjoyed. But this had nothing to do with the stable attribute of "extraversion", it was all to do with the labour expected of women in entertaining at home.

Or maybe you play in a band and the "musician" identity has been made salient by reading "parties", because you tend to play at parties. When you perform "musician", it involves playing the part of somebody having fun and so this is what is salient for your positioning with respect to parties. This doesn't give you a stable "extraversion", however, it just means that you are thinking about performing that role.

Now it gets worse, because these identities have been made salient are still salient as you read the next question. Plus, of course, whatever the situation is under which you are performing the test provides in itself the salience of a particular identity.

So you end up with ISTJ, for example, and what does this actually tell you? It tells you that the situation under which you performed the test plus your current social contexts that mediate how you interpret questions result in the salience of various social identities under which you will perform roles consistent with the ISTJ rating. What it doesn't tell you is that there is some kind of essential, stable attiribute external to your relationship systems that will somehow be ISTJ regardless of context.
Hmm interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain that. But why then would some people's interpretation of the questions change over time and some remain the same?...or similar enough to get the same result each time they take the test? It feels like everyone's results should change over time :hmm: I definitely thought when I first took the test - that if I were to take it again, it would change. So I'm curious as to why it hasn't.

Fwiw I love parties, especially ones where we get to talk about things like this :D If my love of parties made me an extrovert on this test I'd be even more dubious as my understanding is that it's less about what you do and more about how you feel and recharge after. I can love a social event but afterwards I'm wiped, whereas my extrovert friends are positively recharged by the event itself.

As existentialist said, these tests should of course be taken with a pinch of salt but they can be fun and interesting imo.
 
Who says the described attributes are stable? No MBTI test that I've ever taken has made the claim that its results are unchanging over the life time of every individual who takes it. Because that's obviously not true.
They may admit that there is a gradual shift in attributes but the whole basis of its use is that there is stability within a short-term time-frame. What I'm saying is that the results are dependent on context and cultural interpretation, and that this means there is no stability of attributes even within a single day. Note that this doesn't mean you won't get the same results from the test every time you take it (i.e. the test is reliable) -- every time you take the test, you may well have stability of the context through which you are mediating the questions. However, reliablilty is not the same as ecological validity -- you may get the same result but that doesn't make the result useful and applicable.

Why not both? Different individuals in the same kind of relationship will behave differently, for various reasons. Humans are not interchangeable in the same way that nuts and bolts are.
First, let me say that of course different individuals behave differently. They bring with them a vast variety of past experiences that have forged different understandings, different identities, different interpretations. None of this essentialises the attributes, however, or even suggests that attitudes would be stable in different contexts. And that's the basis of the "monad" approach to individuals that underlies the model of MBTI. So no, you can't have both -- you can't on the one hand postulate stable attitudes and on the other say that there is cultural mediation of how events are interpreted.
 
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Hmm interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain that. But why then would some people's interpretation of the questions change over time and some remain the same?...or similar enough to get the same result each time they take the test? It feels like everyone's results should change over time :hmm: I definitely thought when I first took the test - that if I were to take it again, it would change. So I'm curious as to why it hasn't.
Every time you take the test, for a start it is in the context of you taking a test. This not only makes salient a particular type of identity (you could call it a "studious" identity, I suppose) but also provides a cultural touchstone, because you have a lifetime of understanding what it means to do a test, which will influence how you interpret each question. Most people are doing it at work too, in which their worker identity is the most salient. These factors in themselves will provide stabiity in the result. It's not stability of result that matters, though, if that result isn't useful in the real world..

Fwiw I love parties, especially ones where we get to talk about things like this :D If my love of parties made me an extrovert on this test I'd be even more dubious as my understanding is that it's less about what you do and more about how you feel and recharge after. I can love a social event but afterwards I'm wiped, whereas my extrovert friends are positively recharged by the event itself.
Well, it was just an example but my recall is that they do have a question along the lines of "I love going to parties" and that does feed their extroversion score. But the accuracy of the example isn't really the point -- it's the nature of how context and salience of identity and the performance of roles has more of an impact on how you answer these questions than does some idea of stable attitude or personality type.

And when you say "you love parties", I'm pretty sure you have in mind what a "party" is that is not necessarily the same thing as what everybody else will think when they read that word. In some cases, it might even be wildly different.

As existentialist said, these tests should of course be taken with a pinch of salt but they can be fun and interesting imo.
Things can be interesting and they can be dangerous depending on whose hands they are in and what they are being used for. For example, MBTI is commonly used in recruitment, regardless of whether or not the company promotes such use -- that's dangerous. And this happens because of the promotion of a narrative of isolated, separated individuals who are entire unto themselves and can be understood in that way isolated from context. I think that's a dangerous ideology that needs to be recognised and challenged, not matter how much fun it can be to be given a horoscope MBTI score.
 
They may admit that there is a gradual shift in attributes but the whole basis of its use is that there is stability within a short-term time-frame. What I'm saying is that the results are dependent on context and cultural interpretation, and that this means there is no stability of attributes even within a single day. Note that this doesn't mean you won't get the same results from the test every time you take it (i.e. the test is reliable) -- every time you take the test, you may well have stability of the context through which you are mediating the questions. However, reliablilty is not the same as eceological validity -- you may get the same result but that doesn't make the result useful and applicable.

I agree that consistency of results is not sufficient to establish the effectiveness of MBTI. I do think that the reliability of results does blow a massive hole in the notion that the "context" changes so radically within a short time frame.

As for cultural interpretations, I'm pretty sure that both the folks formulating and answering the questions overwhelmingly tend to be Westerners, so I don't think such differences apply in most cases.

First, let me say that of course different individuals behave differently. They bring with them a vast variety of past experiences that have forged different understandings, different identities, different interpretations. None of this essentialises the attributes, however, or even suggests that attitudes would be stable in different contexts. And that's the basis of the "monad" approach to individuals that underlies the model of MBTI. So no, you can't have both -- you can't on the one hand postulate stable attitudes and on the other say that there is cultural mediation of how events are interpreted.

If people can shift from INTP to something else then that's not essentialised, is it? People fall into and out of ways of thinking and doing things in the long term.
 
NoXion -- I've laid out the theoretical underpinnings of my thinking on this and I'm not sure there is much more for me to usefully add without turning it into a full series of academic references, which doesn't sound fun. However, it strikes me that it might be helpful to illustrate what I mean when I say that context can be crucial to the salience of identity and thus the way the answers will be given. Imagine somebody answering the MBTI questions under three different scenarios:
  • As part of a recruitment process, knowing that the results will be scrutinized by a recruitment psychologist. The individual has been sent into an empty room with a booklet containing the questions and an answer sheet to complete by filling in the blobs with an HB pencil. They will speak to nobody until they have finished.
  • Completing a test online because they have an interest in what this test says about their personality. They've heard that it has some science behind it but nothing more than that and it's not for any particular purpose. They are completing it by ticking boxes on a phone whilst sitting in the living room with family around, but not directly interacting. The TV is on in the background.
  • Sitting/lying with their partner whilst in bed on a Sunday morning. Their partner is reading the questions out from "Hiya!" magazine. Both are discussing the answers and laughing about them as they do it. The couple have been together for six months.
I suggest to you that the answers the individual will give in each case are likely to be different and, in many cases, materially so. You could interpret that as intentionally lying, which may play a part. But aside from any deception, they will give different answers in any case because different elements of their identity are salient in each case, and the cultural interpretation of the scenarios presented are affected by the environment within which they are answering.
 
In 2016 I was amazed when a senior manager actually asked me my MB score and then questioned that I actually was INTJ.
I wonder why he assumed I might have done the test ...
(he was from NZ, had worked for the UN and was some sort of Christian ...)

Randomly the other day I again tested over 60 percent Aspie..
I've worked with engineers so have an idea of what that looks like ...

WALOB

Given my problems answering psych test questions it might as well be astrology.
 
All the 16 categories have very flattering names: the Architect, the Commander, the Thinker etc. Everyone's a winner! You're amazing! Yeah right.

At least the Big 5/OCEAN model of personality allows you to be disagreeable, neurotic and closed-minded.
 
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I hate the Myers Briggs test. You put in what you feel about yourself and gives you exactly what you put in with fancy labels. If you think of yourself as a rational/logical no nonsense type then it tells you are. If you think of yourself as a touchy feely people person it tells you you are. It offers no insight and flatters your own self perception which was probably just your ego speaking anyway.

Contra to what Kabbes is saying above, I think it's reasonable to assume that there are fairly stable personality traites a person may have and if they are context sensitive that's a caveat that can be discussed. The problem with Myers Briggs is really basic - it has no empirical basis (except perhaps for the introvert/extrovert axis which is considered to be the least important one anyway). It's Jungian deep insights into the workings of the human brain. Or in other words it's just made up stuff. And the outcome of the test with its simple block categories with no spectrums or subcategories are a symptom of the fact that it is not empirically based. Real people are obviously more complex than this, they aren't just one of 16 "types".

The reason that is looks like complete bollocks is that it is complete bollocks.
 
You can’t say this and then say they are context dependent, because that’s not what “stable” means. They are either stable from context to context or they are mediated by that context.

Stable is a relative not an absolute. Looking at the OCEAN model, you might say someone is open minded about eg. their food choices in general and I think that's valid even if in certain contexts they might not be - perhaps after a particularly bad allergic reaction. I don't think we're looking at a fundamental flaw, just something that needs a more nuanced consideration.

Obviously Briggs Myers doesn't allow for nuanced considerations as it's about finding a box for you to fit into.
 
I totally agree with you about Myers Briggs. Whichever angle you come at it from, it has serious conceptual problems.

The problem with the idea of things like OCEAN, though (and even more with MBTI) is that it places ideas like "preference" and "attitudes" entirely within the individual rather than in the situation, the relationships within the system containing that situation and the nature of the cultural tools that individual has absorbed in order to interpret a given situation. Even to say that somebody is "open minded about food" makes a whole host of assumptions about common-sense and cultural notions of what food is, the context food is eaten in, who food is eaten with, how it is cooked and so on. "Open-minded" is almost certainly bounded within those notions, so it isn't really about the individual being "open-minded" as a static property of that individual, it's about what the range of cultural contexts are that contain the pre-requisite level of contextual affinity for that individual.
 
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