What are managers for?

[extra dry]

why should they wear a fucking tie?

Calm down, give me a momemt to explain.

It's the dress code.



Here in Thailand a teacher, covering everything from Business English to clients, student classes, needs to look smart, thats all. A tie and ironed shirt, neat hair, smell nice, I could go on, no visable tattos, this came up today with an other teacher.

 

[redsquirrel]

Managers are there to insulate Directors from reality.

For once I am in agreement with you.

There obviously can be role for someone to coordinate between different people, ensure things don't get missed and are not duplicated. But an increasing amount of management roles (especially in HE) are basically just there to put in breaks between the shits at the top and workers.
Adding more and more layers of management helps protect the fucks at the top.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Like motorways and traffic the assumption is that “one more manager will fix it”

 

[maomao]

You’re obviously younger than me and don’t remember these:

View attachment 359381

Until a month ago I had a manager that often used to wear one of those. Every time I saw him wearing one I thought 'that's because you don't have a penis' to myself.

 

[muscovyduck]

For once I am in agreement with you.

There obviously can be role for someone to coordinate between different people, ensure things don't get missed and are not duplicated. But an increasing amount of management roles (especially in HE) are basically just there to put in breaks between the shits at the top and workers.
Adding more and more layers of management helps protect the fucks at the top.

HE management seems to be half insulation half what used to be secretarial work

 

[metalguru]

Too many managers where I work in the public sector are 'spreadsheet jockeys' who have manoeuvred themselves into a role where they are chasing other people for what they are doing and create nothing of value themselves.

If you were to ask them what they do, they would be perplexed and reply "I'm checking what you're doing".

That's not sustainable in the long or even medium term. They could be replaced with an AI that checks outputs in a spreadsheet. What they should be doing is asking and answering questions like:

" how does my team fit into the organisation, what opportunities are there? Do we have the right resources, what skills do we need? Is there a different way of delivering? What are our customers saying by way of feedback? How is the landscape changing - are we resourced to deal with it? How are we collaborating with other teams? What opportunities are there to develop team members etc?"

There is loads they could and should be doing - but even at the senior level in the public sector, it's very common to encounter the attitude of 'I got to this level so I don't have to do the work myself. My role is just to check that you do it".

 

[extra dry]

I thought the purpose was to point at your penis in case potential partners couldn't find it. That's why they're pointy at the end.

Thats what I kept saying, but the guy that pays the wages, wants a dress code to reflex some sort of basic standards. If you don't li,e working here you can leave...oh right well yes you see how managers get a terrible name.

 

[ouirdeaux]

What have people got against buttons?

Button phobia is a thing. I don't understand it. OK, phobias are by definition irrational, but why buttons? Toggles look a bit weird, zips can be dangerous, but you never hear of phobias about them. Or of phobias about other similarly sized round things.

I don't think this is the origin of the tie, though. Fuck knows why tying something pointless around one's neck is considered a sign of being Serious About Things.

 

[danny la rouge]

Button phobia is a thing.

I don’t mean to belittle this serious condition.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

They take the credit for the ideas and labour of others whilst being paid more for the privilege whilst policing those they take the credit on behalf of.
It’s worth having a decent one though.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Some of them are just nice but incompetent so can’t be trusted to do anything important so are entrusted with management roles instead. But they get paid more and can sack people.

My boss's boss is like that. She's failed upwards very well.

 

[The39thStep]

For once I am in agreement with you.

There obviously can be role for someone to coordinate between different people, ensure things don't get missed and are not duplicated. But an increasing amount of management roles (especially in HE) are basically just there to put in breaks between the shits at the top and workers.
Adding more and more layers of management helps protect the fucks at the top.

just creates a culture of alienated staff , encourages risk aversiveness and stifles ambition

 

[Sasaferrato]

I agree with cesare - IMO the main role of a manger is to ensure that the people do specific tasks to the correct standard and in a timely manner, this may be to produce tangible objects or carry out a service.
The manager also needs to ensure that there are enough supplies to hand.
A further role would be to make sure staff have adequate breaks each day and deal with other admin matters such as pay, holidays etc when that's not dealt with by others.

IME, it helps if the manager can also do the tasks in question - and can demonstrate that, not to mention a willingness to "roll up their selves" when necessary.

I was in the situation of having a manager who was not trained in the two types of debt that I handled. He threatened me with a written warning when I told him he was as much use as a chocolate fireguard. He was an odious cunt, man management skills of a cockroach and a confrontational manner. Another manager rapidly inserted himself between us one day, as he thought that I was going to thump the git (I wasn't, but if I could have without getting sacked, I would have). I asked for a team move, to be told the manager was moving office, never mind team.

Given the choice I preferred a woman as my manager. More competence, less drama, admin done on time etc. Women are better readers of people I think, I worked best when left alone to get on with it, all my women managers recognised this very quickly. One of them, when she was going on leave, stuck a sign on my monitor 'WARNING: THIS ANIMAL BITES! BEST LEFT ALONE.'.

The day that management became a discipline in its own right was a sad one. Managers who have done the job are far better than those who have not.

 

[StoneRoad]

Personally, I like to manage at arm's length as I hated being micro-managed myself.
I will trust my lot to get on with "stuff" etc etc as long as they prove trustworthy.
But, if anyone drops me in the 5h1t by not doing as expected / required, then I will a) have words - gently at first and by b) closer supervision check their work.
Eventually, even my patience will wear too thin ...

 

[Elpenor]

Worked somewhere once where "manager" just seemed to mean that you had a specific job doing something. Most of these people weren't managing anyone lmao

I have been a manager in that I managed a specific business function, but not any people.

 

[Elpenor]

Yeah my work has sales people called "account managers" that have nobody working under them.

I suspect “account” is a typo

 

[Pickman's model]

#notallmanagers , natch, but it seems that managerial roles is some organisations that would be called secretarial administrative roles (and be paid less and be considered lower status) in other hierarchical organisations.
They don’t know how to do stuff the rest of the team know how to do, so can’t pitch in when times are busy or staffing is low, so they just fuss about stressing everyone, who can get on with things swimmingly when they’re not around.

This is probably some basic observation already made by Marx, so forgive me if I’m stating the obvious, but I was kept awake by this last night.

i think you've drawn the short straw with your managers. one place i work, i've seen senior managers up to the actual librarian himself doing shelving and taking the occasional shift on public-facing desks. other places senior managers refuse to face the public, and my experience of this has included working for a local authority. where my main job is now, the librarian is off thinking beautiful thoughts which he occasionally deigns to share with us lesser mortals: but he'd struggle to cope with any of the tasks we do every day and which he last did about 20 years ago.

as you say, the absence of managers can make everything run more smoothly. on the other hand their ability to fuck everyone else over knows no bounds, like when they foist a new library management system on everyone which doesn't work. and which years later some colleagues actively avoid using because it's shit. but the senior managers declared victory and had a drinks reception to celebrate - no one who has to use the bloody thing was invited.

 

[danski]

Managers who have done the job are far better than those who have not.

This x100

 

[souljacker]

I have had all sorts of different managers over the years. Currently, and in my last few jobs too, the manager has been the CTO of the company who have in all cases been shareholders who own a large chunk of the company so don't really have the time or inclination to worry about what we are doing. In these cases, the admin was in the hands of project managers and all they really wanted to know was are we on target and if not, what do we need to do to get back on target.

Before that, I was in a role where we had a more traditional manager who was really a supervisor. The best of these was an ex-para who was quite honest with us and stated on day one that his role was to make the team look good to the higher ups whilst making sure we were all happy and all the work was being done promptly. If we fucked up, he would get pissed off but once he'd said his piece, he was happy. He sadly passed away while I was working there and his replacement was a knob who would hassle us constantly about stuff not being done, failing to realise if we hadn't had a 2 hour meeting about stuff not being done, we may have got the stuff done. Also, he had no qualms about throwing us under a bus at the first sign of aggro and was suspected of blaming team members of things that he had fucked up. That, coupled with a Chief Exec who hated me (I've got a few stories about this cunt) meant I GTFO as soon as I could.

Early on in my career, I worked at a large financial institution. The managers there were basically cunts. We had one who literally hated all of us and would walk around the place like a little dicatator looking down her noses at us. We had one who was an old friend of my brothers who was a right cunt. I remember one time we had gone to the pub after work and I was talking to him about something work related and he saw one of the top bosses walk in to the pub. He literally just walked off mid sentence to go and smooch with this other bloke. Also, later became a conservative councillor.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I've been a manager on many occasions.

I viewed my place as absorbing the shit from above, evaluating, and if necessary passing my displeasure downwards.

Look after your people, because if you don't, you will regret it.

 

[Orang Utan]

For once I am in agreement with you.

There obviously can be role for someone to coordinate between different people, ensure things don't get missed and are not duplicated. But an increasing amount of management roles (especially in HE) are basically just there to put in breaks between the shits at the top and workers.
Adding more and more layers of management helps protect the fucks at the top.

Yeah and when you tell a manager one or more tiers above about stuff you’re concerned about, you get told off. But someone has to tell them the truth ffs.

 

[Orang Utan]

i think you've drawn the short straw with your managers. one place i work, i've seen senior managers up to the actual librarian himself doing shelving and taking the occasional shift on public-facing desks. other places senior managers refuse to face the public, and my experience of this has included working for a local authority. where my main job is now, the librarian is off thinking beautiful thoughts which he occasionally deigns to share with us lesser mortals: but he'd struggle to cope with any of the tasks we do every day and which he last did about 20 years ago.

as you say, the absence of managers can make everything run more smoothly. on the other hand their ability to fuck everyone else over knows no bounds, like when they foist a new library management system on everyone which doesn't work. and which years later some colleagues actively avoid using because it's shit. but the senior managers declared victory and had a drinks reception to celebrate - no one who has to use the bloody thing was invited.

That’s a very familiar story you’re telling

 

[The39thStep]

Yeah and when you tell a manager one or more tiers above about stuff you’re concerned about, you get told off. But someone has to tell them the truth ffs.

You see imo that is just bad management rather than management itself. My experience in working and managing in the public sector was that often rather than seeing staff as an asset ( after going through some laborious and expensive recruitment process ) that contributes to and often improves/develops processes and the 'product' many managers saw staff as an object to be managed, scrutinised and effectively any enthusiasm for or creativity they initially brought to the job when they were appointed beaten out of them.

 

[Elpenor]

Managers who have done the job are far better than those who have not.

True… but then again when I worked as a manager I’d become the manager because I was the best person at the level below (officer level in my case)

This actually made me a shit manager as I was more comfortable doing my old job than my new one, and it meant I was managing a team that had been weakened as I wasn’t replaced in the team.

I still feel bad 13 years on about how bad a manager I was

 

[danny la rouge]

True… but then again when I worked as a manager I’d become the manager because I was the best person at the level below (officer level in my case)

This actually made me a shit manager as I was more comfortable doing my old job than my new one, and it meant I was managing a team that had been weakened as I wasn’t replaced in the team.

I still feel bad 13 years on about how bad a manager I was

The “Peter principle”, that people are promoted to their point of incompetence. They’re good at something so they’re given a different role. Organisational logic.

 

[Pickman's model]

The “Peter principle”, that people are promoted to their point of incompetence. They’re good at something so they’re given a different role. Organisational logic.

there should be the pickman's principle, that the peter principle doesn't recognise how frequently incompetent managers are promoted well beyond their point of incompetence

 

[Puddy_Tat]

there should be the pickman's principle, that the peter principle doesn't recognise how frequently incompetent managers are promoted well beyond their point of incompetence

there is the dilbert principle

Dilbert principle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[SpookyFrank]

Considering 'management' in schools is usually made up of teachers, or former teachers, it's weird how inept some of them are. Usually we're waiting 10-15 minutes at the start of every staff meeting for two or three educated and very well paid adults to work out how to get a powerpoint up on the screen. But you can't do that as a teacher. You can't tell a room full of kids to talk amongst themselves for a minute while you sort something else because they'll go apeshit and you'll never get them back.

At the end of the day yesterday, no 'senior leaders' were available to chair our end of the day meeting, so one of them handed the notepad of power to one of the normal coalface teachers. The meeting, which is timetable as a ten minute debrief but often takes 45 minutes (time nobody gets paid for) was actually wrapped up in ten minutes for the first time in two months.