My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding

[pennimania]

I know its a freak show; as I said last week, we are the Victorians starring at Hottentots and exclaiming about how odd they are.

However, I can put in as many caveats about editing and stereotyping as would please even the most ardent liberal on here, but Im another one who found last night's episode a profoundly distressing watch.

Had this show been following Afghan or rural Pakistani girls who were being deliberately denied an education in order to keep them reliant on their fathers and husbands, let alone facing the kind of beatings and abuse talked about last night-
there would be less hedging regarding language and less of the cultural relativism.

I disagree.

I would be much less ready to pass judgement on people living outside the UK where education is harder to come by for EVERYONE.

The people shown on the programme live here.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm happy to pass judgement on any culture that eschews education and literacy.

 

[ernestolynch]

Racists

 

[Santino]

Bless

 

[ernestolynch]

You

 

[kyser_soze]

Racists

They'd hate you, with your learning and egalitarian urges.

 

[zoooo]

I still think that taking away their education is the biggest crime of all Ok, schools aren't perfect, but no school at all is an injustice to their future. If they educate their children, they might be able to represent themselves and defent their rights more effectively, for starters.

Extremely good point. You'd think they'd want to raise a few lawyers.

 

[Gromit]

Had this show been following Afghan or rural Pakistani girls who were being deliberately denied an education in order to keep them reliant on their fathers and husbands, let alone facing the kind of beatings and abuse talked about last night-
there would be less hedging regarding language and less of the cultural relativism.

I'll point this out for the second time shall i....

It was not a case of girls being deprived the same education as boys. The boys were just as uneducated.

I think it was more of a mechanism to keep future generations (both sexes) within the community by limiting their options and aspirations rather than specifically to keep their women shackled.

Not that we weren't shown cultural mechanisms specifically designed to shackle their women and I'm not saying that the lack of education doesn't aid and combine with these.

 

[Gromit]

Extremely good point. You'd think they'd want to raise a few lawyers.

They do raise a few.

 

[Melinda]

I'll point this out for the second time shall i....

It was not a case of girls being deprived the same education as boys. The boys were just as uneducated.

I think it was more of a mechanism to keep future generations (both sexes) within the community by limiting their options and aspirations rather than specifically to keep their women shackled.

Not that we weren't shown cultural mechanisms specifically designed to shackle their women and I'm not saying that the lack of education doesn't aid and combine with these.

With what authority are you speaking? You can stamp your feet and insist on anything you like, it doesn't make you correct.


Its clear that in order to protect itself the communities we saw had turned inward. They aren't the only culture which strives to bind its young people to traditions and culture through restricting freedom.

However, illiteracy is too high a price to pay for conformity and community cohesion. Its indefensible.

And was also clear that that the women and girls featured were disproportionately disadvantaged by being being denied at least a secondary education. The boys were still able to go out over night, to drink, to travel, to work and to live as they pleased.

The mothers, sisters and wives featured were bound to their homesteads by family responsibility, duty, culture, taboo and illiteracy. Denying them an education denies them the chance to earn their own living and to support themselves, keeping them dependent on the men in their lives. The girl with the job in the bakers said as much herself.

 

[zoooo]

They do raise a few.

Well I meant the ones in the show. But good to know there are some elsewhere.

 

[Gromit]

With what authority are you speaking? You can stamp your feet and insist on anything you like, it doesn't make you correct.

With exactly the same authority as you. At the level that doesn't excuse you from ignoring that both boys and girls were denied education cause it conveniently allows you sympathise more with the girls rather than both (as far as education is concerned).

Its clear that in order to protect itself the communities we saw had turned inward. They aren't the only culture which strives to bind its young people to traditions and culture through restricting freedom.

agreed

However, illiteracy is too high a price to pay for conformity and community cohesion. Its indefensible.

still very much agreed

And was also clear that that the women and girls featured were disproportionately disadvantaged by being being denied at least a secondary education.

Not clear to me how that disproportionate disadvantage was due to specifically education and not other factors Seeing as the boys were being just as denied in that area.

The boys were still able to go out over night, to drink, to travel, to work and to live as they pleased.

you and i are discussing education, whats the relevance of this sentence please?

The mothers, sisters and wives featured were bound to their homesteads by family responsibility, duty, culture, taboo and illiteracy. Denying them an education denies them the chance to earn their own living and to support themselves, keeping them dependent on the men in their lives. The girl with the job in the bakers said as much herself.

I wouldn't say deny. Plenty of women support themselves (and children) independently via menial jobs. Some even with no job at all (benefits). We even had an example of such in the episode. An example to us all.

Limit is the term i used before and limit is still the term that fits the most in my opinion.

 

[Gromit]

Well I meant the ones in the show. But good to know there are some elsewhere.

Yep. Many are experts in how to stall the authorities from shifting travellers from sites.

Its often a good idea to employ someone sympathetic rather than some Oxford nob for such battles.

 

[Treacle Toes]

you and i are discussing education, whats the relevance of this sentence please?

Education, life skills, achievement, a sense of 'freedom' and fulfillment etc are not only acquired through formal education.

 

[Gromit]

Education, life skills, achievement, a sense of 'freedom' and fulfillment etc are not only acquired through formal education.

Thanks. Okay I can accept thats relevant now. Hadn't thought of it that way.

 

[Melinda]

With exactly the same authority as you.

So you were being unnecessarily condescending when you had no more right than anyone else.

At the level that doesn't excuse you from ignoring that both boys and girls were denied education cause it conveniently allows you sympathise more with the girls rather than both (as far as education is concerned).

The theme of the episode was the role of women and girls in this community.
Ive explained clearly why I think these women are disproportionately disadvantaged by the denial of education.
Their culture (as portrayed last night) is strictly patriarchal and it ensures that boys are still allowed to go out, earn a living and live full lives despite their educational disadvantage.
The girls are not.

Even if they chose to leave the community to earn a living they would be poorly equipped.

At no stage have I said its ok that the boys cant read.

 

[Gromit]

At no stage have I said its ok that the boys cant read.

Nope but you were being sexist by ignoring it and focusing solely on the girls. The sort of thing I've gotten picked up on before (quite rightly) so I might as well pick you up on it (if thats the done thing as it seems to be).

Anyhow I'll stop being combative now. I promised earlier in the year i would be less so and so sorry.

 

[spanglechick]

I don't think I've ever taught a traveller girl after the first year of secondary - though I've had a few in my class up til then. I have taught traveller boys later, but I can think of only one family where those boys sat their GCSEs (though their sister didn't iirc). In my limited experience boys tended to leave school around 2 years later than girls. But then attendance up until that point is very poor. Traveller families are allowed a certain number of extra days off school by law, so that they can attend horse fairs etc - but really attendance tends to be worse than that, and prohibits progress at the same rate as other students.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Nope but you were being sexist by ignoring it and focusing solely on the girls.

Hold on....Melinda made a comparason...one which you agreed was valid when I expanded on the point she made.

The boys were still able to go out over night, to drink, to travel, to work and to live as they pleased.

you and i are discussing education, whats the relevance of this sentence please?

Education, life skills, achievement, a sense of 'freedom' and fulfillment etc are not only acquired through formal education.

Thanks. Okay I can accept thats relevant now. Hadn't thought of it that way.

You agree with the point/comparason but it is sexist? Does that mean you and I are sexist too because we think the point made is relevant/valid?

 

[likesfish]

did seem rather shite deal.
lack of education massivly impacts on fife expectancty travellers don't tend to pick up pensions

 

[miss direct]

Just for the record, I know people can take the driving theory test in other languages - in which case, the questions are read out orally - I'm sure people who can't read in English are also capable of listening to the questions and only basic reading skills would be needed to do a multiple choice thing - many of which are numbers in any case.

 

[pinkmonkey]

did seem rather shite deal.
lack of education massivly impacts on fife expectancty travellers don't tend to pick up pensions

We had a couple living in a trailer here when we first moved here. He dropped dead only 42 years old. The other two blokes here are not in great health either. It's so grim, really. I've two friends who have been youth workers with travellers for years, they just say how draining it is, it's really depressing, no education means the only way to earn money is to turn to crime. They're probably the most despised group of people in the UK. My dad always says, he's as left wing as they come until it comes to travellers. I don't think he quite beleives that we get on and they've not ripped us off or anything. I'm not going to romanticise it either, the amount of trouble they can attract. We once had 40 people show up from some site with crowbars and rottweilers to seize a trailer that belonged to another (recently deceased) traveller neighbour.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Nice

you can stick it up your fat hairy arse.

i'm proud to be a pikey

 

[Gromit]

Last night I was like "hey! I recognise that Paddy. That can't be possible that i know him is it?"

I'd seen him on "Danny Dyer’s Deadliest Men 2" I realised after a bit.

The only one I'd ever seen I feel obliged to add. Danny Dyer followed him around like a puppy with his tongue firmly up his arse for the whole episode.

They showed the full horror of inside of his house. Decorated like a brothel it was.

On Gypsy weddings I notice that they kept the cemeras at certain angles to make the place look as tasteful as possible. Seriously you need to see Danny Dyer's programme to see what his house is really like. Hideous beyond belief. Danny Dyer is there with no sarcasm telling Paddy what a gorgeous palace of a place it is.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Ah, thought the cunt looked familiar.

70 god children. Real life pikey godfather.

 

[rutabowa]

hadn't seen this for a few episodes.... was still pretty much the same story wasn't it? the bit with the bare knuckle fight was good tho, it confirmed my thought that the men are nails. BAM that first punch! i question how "fair" the fight was tho like they kept saying, if one of the guys was allowed to pretty much knock out the other before the fight had officially started.

 

[electroplated]

Last night I was like "hey! I recognise that Paddy. That can't be possible that i know him is it?"

I'd seen him on "Danny Dyer’s Deadliest Men 2" I realised after a bit.

The only one I'd ever seen I feel obliged to add. Danny Dyer followed him around like a puppy with his tongue firmly up his arse for the whole episode.

They showed the full horror of inside of his house. Decorated like a brothel it was.

On Gypsy weddings I notice that they kept the cemeras at certain angles to make the place look as tasteful as possible. Seriously you need to see Danny Dyer's programme to see what his house is really like. Hideous beyond belief. Danny Dyer is there with no sarcasm telling Paddy what a gorgeous palace of a place it is.

Nice one - just found it on youtube

 

[DRINK?]

do all gypsy women have massive boobs or are Channel 4 only interested in buxom types

 

[tommers]

hadn't seen this for a few episodes.... was still pretty much the same story wasn't it? the bit with the bare knuckle fight was good tho, it confirmed my thought that the men are nails. BAM that first punch! i question how "fair" the fight was tho like they kept saying, if one of the guys was allowed to pretty much knock out the other before the fight had officially started.

That was a different fella that he hit, wasn't it?

 

[rutabowa]

That was a different fella that he hit, wasn't it?

was it, i thought it was the same guy he ended up fighting? anyway, that one first punch looked deadly, BAM!! straight on to the floor. it was a sucker punch tho so not really fair if it was the guy he was meant to be fighting "fairly" though.