Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

[Jeff Robinson]

What life isn't tragic? We all die, normally painfully. There is a fair deal of romanticism in this post, I think.

A cow in 'the wild' (even this is a tricky concept for a domesticated animal - in the wild where?) would have an average lifespan of perhaps 12-15 years once it has made it to adulthood. Most would die in their first year, though, from predation or disease. On well-run dairy farms it will be around half that, and instead of predation, you have the likelihood of being killed before adulthood if you're surplus to requirements.

I don't see the relevance of the comparison between domesticated cows and wild bovinae here. Even if the latter have a worse quality of life, why ought that effect our judgements about how it is permissible for humans to treat the former?

What is happening, of course, is a human is deciding when a cow's life is to end. I don't see betrayal in that - you never promised the cow anything.

Of course there is no formal agreement between farmers and the animals under their control, but on farms where the animals are genuinely well-cared for there is nonetheless a relationship of trust that is built between them. I regard It as an accurate use of language to describe packing those animals off to slaughter as a betrayal of that trust. In the words of another former livestock farmer (who subsequently converted to veganic vegetable farming):

"In a way, livestock farmers lie to their animals. We’re kind to them and take good care of them for months, even years. They grow comfortable with our presence, and even begin to like us. But in the end, we take advantage of the animals, using their trust to dupe them into being led to their own deaths."

There is exploitation, clearly - but that's why they were born in the first place. Do you judge that it would be better if they had never existed? If so, why?

For the vast majority of farm animals, whose lives are full of misery and pain, it would have been better for them had they not come into existence. For the small percentage of animals who do exist and have good lives, or the potential to have good lives, it would be better if they were able to live out their natural lives in peace on farm sanctuaries rather than being sent to slaughterhouses. For potential animals whose existence is dependent upon their being exploited and killed, it is better that they stay out of existence, because their existence dependents on an industry based on pointless violence, which the world would be better off without.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I think we need to move in the direction of less of those things. I expect some things will become “special occasion food” rather than an everyday thing.

I definitely believe 'we' do need to use less of these things. I actually do eat a lot less meat than I used to, and I actually do source all of my meat from one farm. It's expensive, which is the main reason I don't eat it as often, but it's top quality and about as ethical as any meat producing farm can be, so my conscience is about as clean as a fragile carnist's conscience can be.

 

[Saul Goodman]

For the vast majority of farm animals, whose lives are full of misery and pain, it would have been better for them had they not come into existence.

Absolute hyperbole. Do you think farmers spend their days beating their livestock?

For potential animals whose existence is dependent upon their being exploited and killed, it is better that they stay out of existence, because their existence dependents on an industry based on pointless violence, which the world would be better off without.

Pointless? You think they're killed for the lulz?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"In a way, livestock farmers lie to their animals. We’re kind to them and take good care of them for months, even years. They grow comfortable with our presence, and even begin to like us. But in the end, we take advantage of the animals, using their trust to dupe them into being led to their own deaths."

I don't really accept that. They are brought into the world to be killed, ultimately. No reason not to be kind to them up to the moment they are killed. I don't see dishonesty in that at all. They don't know they were brought into the world to be killed. But they also don't know they weren't. They don't know either way.

For the small percentage of animals who do exist and have good lives, or the potential to have good lives, it would be better if they were able to live out their natural lives in peace on farm sanctuaries rather than being sent to slaughterhouses. For potential animals whose existence is dependent upon their being exploited and killed, it is better that they stay out of existence, because their existence dependents on an industry based on pointless violence, which the world would be better off without.

These animals might see out their natural lives on farm sanctuaries, but when they die, that's basically it. Better for these individual animals to live longer lives, perhaps, but if we're talking about a cycle of livestock as livestock rather than simply animals that are left alone, if we're talking about farming, then that cycle includes the slaughterhouse. I think it's arbitrary to say that it is better they should never exist if their lives are not full of misery (and I accept that the lives of many farm animals are miserable, and that such lives have little to commend them). They live shorter lives than they would if they weren't killed. But their lives were always going to be finite. I don't see a moral imperative either way in that.

 

[Epona]

Non dairy milk substitutes are on offer in Morrisons atm (3 items for £3), so I am taking the opportunity to try hazelnut, oat, and rice milk.

Will report back.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I think if I am to change over from cows milk, I will choose hemp milk. It seems to be full of omega 3, 6 and 9...has a good protein amount.
Hemp: Nutrition, health benefits, and diet

It's available locally.
Pretty expensive..
I've found this one and am getting it on Friday. I only use milk in coffee...and maybe once in a while in muesli. It's €2.49 per litre.




Hemp seeds seem to be a superfood so I might have a look in the local health food shop and see what else is available. If they are high in protein then I think that could be a good option for me.
Apparently hemp is very fast growing and full of all sorts of vitamins, minerals, amino acids and food value. Only thing not in its favour is that it can interfere with anti coagulant meds...so I'll have to keep it away from the ancient members of the family.

Anyone got any info on hemp cheese?

 

[krtek a houby]

You need more land. And decent or at least predictable weather. That....We don't have.

I think we'll be having back 6 counties in the not too distant future.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

So if we want to save the planet each person who is eating meat and dairy has to cut back to the following. .

1.5 eggs per week.
1.7 kg dairy including cows milk. Working out as one glass a day.
7 grams of red meat per day.
500 grams of vegetables and fruits per day..
29 grams of poultry per day.
28 grams of fish per day
The solution, based on three years of modelling studies, is a diet consisting of around 35% of calories obtained from whole grains and tubers, and protein mostly derived from plants.

'Halve consumption of red meat and sugar to save the planet' - Independent.ie

I could do that...mostly.
Basically 3 days of meat, poultry or fish a week. And 1 glass of milk per day.
I do that already.
1.5 eggs per week is really low
But it is doable...
Lots of veg, fruits, nuts, beans etc.

The traditional daily meat and two veg will be gone for most.
Interestingly they say red meat but can't see mention of pork or mutton. So I assume they mean beef.

 

[editor]

And yet another report underlining the fact that people HAVE to eat less meat and dairy for the well being of the planet. If they give a fuck, of course.

What changes am I going to have to make?
If you eat meat every day then this is the first biggie. For red meat you're looking at a burger a week or a large steak a month and that's your lot.

You can still have a couple of portions of fish and the same of chicken a week, but plants are where the rest of your protein will need to come from. The researchers are recommending nuts and a good helping of legumes every day instead.

There's also a major push on all fruit and veg, which should make up half of every plate of food we eat.

Meat, veg, nuts - a diet designed to feed 10bn

Why do we need a diet for 10 billion people?
The world population reached seven billion in 2011 and it's now around 7.7 billion. That figure is expected to reach 10 billion around 2050 and will keep on climbing.

Will it save lives?
The researchers say the diet will prevent about 11 million people dying each year.

That number is largely down to cutting diseases related to unhealthy diets such as heart attacks, strokes and some cancers. These are now the biggest killers in developed countries.

The use of land for growing food and forestry accounts for around a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions. That's about the same as from electricity and heating, and substantially more than from all the trains, planes and automobiles on the planet.

When you look more closely at the food sector's environmental impact, you can see that meat and dairy are the major factors. Worldwide, livestock accounts for between 14.5 and 18% of human-induced greenhouse gas emissions.

When it comes to other warming gases, agriculture is one of the leading contributors to both methane and nitrous oxide emissions.

Agriculture is also a significant source of air pollution with ammonia from farms a major cause of fine particulate matter, which the World Health Organization (WHO) says is a threat to health worldwide.

Similarly when it comes to water, agriculture and food productions are one of the biggest threats, consuming 70% of global freshwater sources for irrigation.

 

[editor]

This is grim reading too.

The pigs were there for slaughter, no matter the time of night.

The back of the truck they were in opened and, one by one by one, they were led out.

I remember watching them change.

From quiet and inquisitive, poking their snouts through the slats, they began to squeal and push themselves to the back of the truck, as though it would be possible to pretend they weren't there, that the abattoir worker wouldn't see them.

And so the slaughter began.

How investigating the dark side of dairy changed me

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So if we want to save the planet each person who is eating meat and dairy has to cut back to the following. .

1.5 eggs per week.
1.7 kg dairy including cows milk. Working out as one glass a day.
7 grams of red meat per day.
500 grams of vegetables and fruits per day..
29 grams of poultry per day.
28 grams of fish per day
The solution, based on three years of modelling studies, is a diet consisting of around 35% of calories obtained from whole grains and tubers, and protein mostly derived from plants.

'Halve consumption of red meat and sugar to save the planet' - Independent.ie

I could do that...mostly.
Basically 3 days of meat, poultry or fish a week. And 1 glass of milk per day.
I do that already.
1.5 eggs per week is really low
But it is doable...
Lots of veg, fruits, nuts, beans etc.

The traditional daily meat and two veg will be gone for most.
Interestingly they say red meat but can't see mention of pork or mutton. So I assume they mean beef.

Nope. They mean beef, pork, lamb, mutton, goat, venison, horse... Mammals, basically, except rabbits. Eat more rabbit. They're pests that need killing to protect crops anyway, so double-plus-good.

 

[8ball]

Nope. They mean beef, pork, lamb, mutton, goat, venison, horse... Mammals, basically, except rabbits. Eat more rabbit. They're pests that need killing to protect crops anyway, so double-plus-good.

I do like a good rabbit stew. Or pie.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

There's no mention of insects.
Hmm.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is grim reading too.



How investigating the dark side of dairy changed me

Animals aren't stupid, the more I find out about them the more like us they seem except humans are more vicious

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I do like a good rabbit stew. Or pie.

It's alright. Really what I like is a nice fatty cut of lamb.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's no mention of insects.
Hmm.

Insects fine. And pretty environmentally friendly.

 

[editor]

Animals aren't stupid, the more I find out about them the more like us they seem except humans are more vicious

What humans do to sentient beings is unspeakable cruel.

 

[8ball]

What humans do to sentient beings is unspeakable cruel.

What humans often do to humans is unspeakably cruel.

On the bright side, that might be coming to an end soon.

Climate change and all that...

 

[Pickman's model]

What they often do to humans is unspeakably cruel.

On the bright side, that might be coming to an end soon.

Climate change and all that...

Yeh people killing all the nasty animals is the bright side

Catch yourself on

 

[8ball]

Yeh people killing all the nasty animals is the bright side

Catch yourself on

Did you misread something there?

<edited to clarify just in case>

 

[Baronage-Phase]

A big reduction in potatoes
.. that's me fucked.

Half a rasher a day, fewer potatoes in new diet advice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

View attachment 159018


A big reduction in potatoes
.. that's me fucked.

Half a rasher a day, fewer potatoes in new diet advice

That's a very Ireland-based set of advice. How about things like rice and bread? As said upthread, the world's diet is grain-based more than anything, something that tends to get left out of many discussions. What's up with spuds anyway? Good cheap source of carbs, local produce. What's not to like?

ETa:

Ok read the link now. Still not sure what the issue is with starchy food. So pasta's mostly out as well. Isn't the Mediterranean diet lauded as a very healthy one? And I don't see the sustainability issues with growing the likes of potatoes. In the UK and Ireland at least, spuds are dead easy to grow.

Problem with that kind of approach is that they're trying to address a few things at once. I'm guessing the problem with starchy food is the carbs and people overeating. But plenty of people eat lots of spuds/pasta and don't overeat because they're not overconsuming other things. It's all about the whole diet.

On the flip-side of that, in parts of the world where people don't have enough to eat, a starchy meal of cassava or boiled plantain is going to fill you up in a way that non-starchy veg won't.

 

[8ball]

The version of the Mediterranean diet that is recommended has pretty low levels of refined carbs. Olive oil, fish, lots of fresh vegetables..

 

[Calamity1971]

Tried this because my local cheap freezer shop (herons) was selling them for 30p with a decent date on.
Bleeding awful, must be the agave syrup in it.
Provamel | Macadamia Original

 

[editor]

I finally managed to track down some of that Naturli Vegan Spreadable 'Butter' and can confirm that it is really tasty. So that's one less dairy product I'l be buying.

Using a blend of rapeseed, coconut and shea oil, Naturli' has the same smooth, rich texture as dairy spread but without the heaviness. Thankfully for someone who dislikes coconut there's no whiff or taste of my nemesis. It has the good salty tang a lot of alternatives seem to be lacking and really worked well spread generously on warm bread. It is easy to spread, as its name suggests, even straight from the fridge.

Naturli' Launches Vegan Butter - Canny Food

 

[editor]

Tried this because my local cheap freezer shop (herons) was selling them for 30p with a decent date on.
Bleeding awful, must be the agave syrup in it.
Provamel | Macadamia Original

I really don't like the Provamel 'fresh' soya either. Horrible stuff.

 

[Calamity1971]

I really don't like the Provamel 'fresh' soya either. Horrible stuff.

Will avoid that then. I like the morrisons own soya drink.

 

[editor]

Will avoid that then. I like the morrisons own soya drink.

I much prefer just about every supermarket's own brand unsweetened soya I've tried.

 

[Calamity1971]

I finally managed to track down some of that Naturli Vegan Spreadable 'Butter' and can confirm that it is really tasty. So that's one less dairy product I'l be buying.


Naturli' Launches Vegan Butter - Canny Food

I've had that. Weird melt in the mouth texture but nice. They have brought it out in block form as well, they had it in my local Sainsbury's the other day.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I finally managed to track down some of that Naturli Vegan Spreadable 'Butter' and can confirm that it is really tasty. So that's one less dairy product I'l be buying.


Naturli' Launches Vegan Butter - Canny Food

Damn it.. I'm allergic to shea butter.