Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

[Orang Utan]

So it seems it's bad to try and be better as a human, cos that would mean others would be intimidated by this and resent you for supposedly feeling superior for doing so?
There's a lot of twisted thinking going on there

 

[CNT36]

I really don't like soya milk. I have tried a few but it just tastes like cardboard to me.

I had a carton of almond milk when camping in Aussie on the grounds that it wouldn't go off but that was not nice in tea or coffee either.

I switched primarily to soya milk a few months ago for hot drinks and weetabix. I chose Soya as an alternative due to the relatively high amount if protein. Taste was a secondary concern. I found it a little unpleasant but was bearable. I don't find it tasty now but neither is it unpleasant. I imagine it would be the same with cow's milk or even meat if I'd only started on it in my thirties. It would take a bit of getting used to.

I bet every piece of electronic equipment you own was built by exploited workers on China. I bet every vegangelist on this thread has a phone that was made in China by exploited HUMANS, when there are alternatives, you bunch of hypocrites.

What's your point? Trying to minimise exploitation where possible, without being a puritan and trying to make some small difference through consumer choices (however futile) is hardly hypocritical.

Although I think Editor has been a bit off in this thread dismissing certain areas of discussion if he wants to try and persuade people or just disseminate some information on this subject on a thread that can quite easily be ignored that's in no way unreasonable or evangelical.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

So it seems it's bad to try and be better as a human, cos that would mean others would be intimidated by this and resent you for supposedly feeling superior for doing so?
There's a lot of twisted thinking going on there

You see this is exactly my point.
You are saying that you're a better human. You've just said it.
Humans have eaten meat for 2.5 million years.
Meat production is a problem. But you have made it personal. As if people eating meat are not trying to be better people...like you.

 

[TruXta]

You see this is exactly my point.
You are saying that you're a better human. You've just said it.
Humans have eaten meat for 2.5 million years.
Meat production is a problem. But you have made it personal. As if people eating meat are not trying to be better people...like you.

People have murdered each other for longer. Does that make murder ok, and does it make people who don't murder others supremacist wankers?

 

[Orang Utan]

You see this is exactly my point.
You are saying that you're a better human. You've just said it.
Humans have eaten meat for 2.5 million years.
Meat production is a problem. But you have made it personal. As if people eating meat are not trying to be better people...like you.

I'm not saying I'm a better human. But I appreciate that some of my vegan comrades are doing more to improve humanity and its treatment of the planet than I am, and I don't resent them for it. I think they have a lot of wise things to say and I'm listening.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

People have murdered each other for longer. Does that make murder ok, and does it make people who don't murder others supremacist wankers?

I'm saying that humans will not be able to sustain a totally vegan diet.
I'm saying that eating meat for many in the world is a necessity.
And that veganism should not be forced on any one for political reasons.

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm saying that humans will not be able to sustain a totally vegan diet.
I'm saying that eating meat for many in the world is a necessity.
And that veganism should not be forced on any one for political reasons.

Who's forcing veganism on anyone? People are just saying that it's a good idea to go vegan if you can.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I'm not saying I'm a better human. But I appreciate that some of my vegan comrades are doing more to improve humanity and its treatment of the planet than I am, and I don't resent them for it. I think they have a lot of wise things to say and I'm listening.

So am I..
I'm listening.
I tried vegetarianism . It was not something I could maintain.
Health wise I was better eating meat.

 

[Orang Utan]

So am I..
I'm listening.
I tried vegetarianism . It was not something I could maintain.
Health wise I was better eating meat.

Good for you

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Who's forcing veganism on anyone? People are just saying that it's a good idea to go vegan if you can.

When you are told that you personally are cruel for eating meat...that is a judgement.
And the implication is that you would be a better person if you did not eat meat.
You've said it yourself. You said you were trying to be a better person by being Vegan.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Good for you

You must not have read my previous posts.
Your flippant retort is not nice.

I have a degenerative muscular disease. Its necessary for me to eat protein. I can't eat soya or quirk or other proteins without an allwegiv reaction. The only one that I my body access well is meat.

 

[Orang Utan]

When you are told that you personally are cruel for eating meat...that is a judgement.
And the implication is that you would be a better person if you did not eat meat.
You've said it yourself. You said you were trying to be a better person by being Vegan.

I'm not a vegan.
I think the world would be a better place if we stopped farming animals on an industrial scale and i admire people who have taken steps to avoid this.

 

[TruXta]

I'm saying that humans will not be able to sustain a totally vegan diet.
I'm saying that eating meat for many in the world is a necessity.
And that veganism should not be forced on any one for political reasons.

The vast majority of people have no real medical need to eat meat. Of course there are exceptional cases such as yourself, but so what? The ecological case against meat and dairy is pretty fucking damning as is.

 

[Orang Utan]

You must not have read my previous posts.
Your flippant retort is not nice.

I have a degenerative muscular disease. Its necessary for me to eat protein. I can't eat soya or quirk or other proteins without an allwegiv reaction. The only one that I my body access well is meat.

It's not flippant. You tried it. It didn't work for you for health reasons. Good for you. Not sure how this is relevant to other people's dietary choices though.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I'm not a vegan.
I think the world would be a better place if we stopped farming animals on an industrial scale and i admire people who have taken steps to avoid this.

We agree on that
I 100% agree that mass production is wrong. And that's why I buy local meat from a farm near by. A family run organic grass fed beef farm.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

It's not flippant. You tried it. It didn't work for you for health reasons. Good for you. Not sure how this is relevant to other people's dietary choices though.

That was my point. We are allowed to choose what we eat. For many, veganism works. However, it's not for every one.
The thread is about how dairy farming needs to be cut to save the planet. And I agree that something needs to be done. But we can't eliminate dairy and meat from production in a small country when its a main source of food.

 

[TruXta]

That was my point. We are allowed to choose what we eat. For many, veganism works. However, it's not for every one.
The thread is about how dairy farming needs to be cut to save the planet. And I agree that something needs to be done. But we can't eliminate dairy and meat from production in a small country when its a main source of food.

Of course you can if the political will is there.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

People have murdered each other for longer. Does that make murder ok, and does it make people who don't murder others supremacist wankers?

I couldn't tell you. It was orangutan who said he was tryimg to be a better person. Not me.
I think we are all just ahiggling along with increasingly less control over our own lives.

 

[xenon]

I didn't question 'ethical purity' whatever that means, but given the inherent mistreatment and cruelty in the dairy/meat industry, it's certainly something to consider and discuss.

My point is just: If someone's trying to have less of an environmental impact through their consumer choices in some areas and if they're not hectoring others about doing the same, it's ridiculous and counterproductive to snear about them still having a smart phone or whatever.


Whether that was you having a go at Looper or SoulGoodman having a go at Ddraig et al.

We can discuss the relative merits of products regarding how sustainable they are without doing that. Of course as LBJ and others have pointed out, consumer choice is a small part of solving the problem. It might provide pressure from a marketing perspective but there needs to be systemic change.

I think we're likely just to see things get more expensive as externalities force production into reducing, or changing. In 20 years, if there's anything like the same level of industry and functioning market system, dairy foods may probably just be a luxury anyway.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Of course you can if the political will is there.

Not if the country is a small island and cannot sustain itself without meat and dairy.

 

[JimW]

I'm a better human being, but it's nothing to do with being a vegan. It's because mad scientists rebuilt me with tungsten claws in a top secret military programme.

 

[TruXta]

I couldn't tell you. It was orangutan who said he was tryimg to be a better person. Not me.
I think we are all just ahiggling along with increasingly less control over our own lives.

OK I'll try again. You said that people have been eating meat for millions of years. Which implies you think that makes it fine. My point was to show that appealing to tradition lands you in a position where anything with a long history is fine, simply because it has a long history.

It's called the appeal to tradition fallacy.

 

[TruXta]

Not if the country is a small island and cannot sustain itself without meat and dairy.

There's nothing about Ireland that makes it forever dependent on dairy farming.

 

[Orang Utan]

Not if the country is a small island and cannot sustain itself without meat and dairy.

it can though. it would take a lot of doing, but it's possible. you only think it's not possible cos it's been done for centuries. things change, even big things like this. Look at the efforts made to change how we produce energy - it's a long struggle, but it's surely possible if the political (and cultural) will is there.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

There's nothing about Ireland that makes it forever dependent on dairy farming.

You must not have heard about what happened when we relied on potatoes.

Climate here is not great for growing veg and fruit. Certainly not enough to feed a completely vegan population. Which is what you seem to be proposing?

 

[andysays]

Looks like this subject is in danger of becoming the new trans vs TERF of Urban...

 

[Baronage-Phase]

it can though. it would take a lot of doing, but it's possible. you only think it's not possible cos it's been done for centuries. things change, even big things like this. Look at the efforts made to change how we produce energy - it's a long struggle, but it's surely possible if the political (and cultural) will is there.

Like I said before....there are things you can live without. But you don't mess with food sources in a small country.
Meat and dairy could well be cut back. And maybe we would have enough to feed the population.
But if it goes wrong there will be serious problems. As in a country starving.

 

[TruXta]

You must not have heard about what happened when we relied on potatoes.

Climate here is not great for growing veg and fruit. Certainly not enough to feed a completely vegan population. Which is what you seem to be proposing?

I don't think that you can compare the two periods in time for reasons that should be abundantly clear. Besides, why has national food self-sufficiency suddenly become a part of the discussion? Do you think Ireland is about to be cut off from the rest of the world?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I don't think that you can compare the two periods in time for reasons that should be abundantly clear. Besides, why has national food self-sufficiency suddenly become a part of the discussion? Do you think Ireland is about to be cut off from the rest of the world?

Yep. Brexit.

 

[TruXta]