Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared

TruXta said:
:confused::facepalm:
Click to expand...


Well that's your feeling and I hope that things won't be so bad. But realistically fresh food goes off within 2 to 3 days on a truck. Up to now travelling from Calais to Ireland was simple.
From 29th of March that will change. Food leaving the country will not move quickly. Food entering the country will take longer... much longer.
Do you not see that?

Ireland will be cut off because of its geography alone.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
The documentary highlights some of the contradictions and paradoxes around the idea of humane farming. It's undeniable that they were conscientious farmers, but that just made it all the more difficult for them to send their animals to slaughter. Why? For one, if an individual is given a good life then it makes it all the more tragic for it to be snatched away from them. And further, if you truly care about another, you look after them, form a relationship with them, understand their unique characteristics and so forth, then there's something downright sinister about betraying them by sticking them on a truck to what is, in all likelihood - as they say on the documentary - ‘a terrifying and painful death’. To see the force of this point, imagine if somebody sent their dog to a slaughterhouse to be turned into a fur coat or mincemeat. The fact that the dog had a good life before slaughter does not address the ethical question about whether it is acceptable to exploit and betray vulnerable, dependent individuals in this way.

This is the dilemma of animal agriculture: it either involves giving animals tragic lives or tragically depriving animals of their lives. Jay and Katja realised this, and moved away from it as farmers. I think we should do the same as consumers. And that’s a lot less of a hard, life-changing decision for us than it must have been for them.
Click to expand...

What life isn't tragic? We all die, normally painfully. There is a fair deal of romanticism in this post, I think.

A cow in 'the wild' (even this is a tricky concept for a domesticated animal - in the wild where?) would have an average lifespan of perhaps 12-15 years once it has made it to adulthood. Most would die in their first year, though, from predation or disease. On well-run dairy farms it will be around half that, and instead of predation, you have the likelihood of being killed before adulthood if you're surplus to requirements.

What is happening, of course, is a human is deciding when a cow's life is to end. I don't see betrayal in that - you never promised the cow anything. There is exploitation, clearly - but that's why they were born in the first place. Do you judge that it would be better if they had never existed? If so, why?
 
Lupa said:
Well that's your feeling and I hope that things won't be so bad. But realistically fresh food goes off within 2 to 3 days on a truck. Up to now travelling from Calais to Ireland was simple.
From 29th of March that will change. Food leaving the country will not move quickly. Food entering the country will take longer... much longer.
Do you not see that?

Ireland will be cut off because of its geography alone.
Click to expand...
Ireland isn't leaving the EU as far as I'm aware?.
 
TruXta said:
I don't think anyone does as of right now.
Click to expand...

It will take longer than it does now.
And that is known. There will be delays.
Anyway... Look.. We will see what happens. Nobody here really thinks it will be easy.
The Government is talking about expanding services at Foynes port to facilitate movement directly from Ireland to France and vice versa. That will still delay movement of fresh food produce. But it will eliminate delays caused by customs in the UK...because produce will bypass the UK. This plan will take months if not years to sort out. The road from Foynes to the nearest city and main dual carriageway etc is not a good road. It's not suitable for HGVs in their hundreds.
So roads will need to be built. Land bought up. All that that entails.

In the meantime food will not move well. So yeah...Ireland is obviously in the EU but less connected because of Brexit
And yes..It will effect food distribution. And that is reason enough to maintain self sufficiency on an island.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
What is happening, of course, is a human is deciding when a cow's life is to end. I don't see betrayal in that - you never promised the cow anything. There is exploitation, clearly - but that's why they were born in the first place. Do you judge that it would be better if they had never existed? If so, why?
Click to expand...

And so to anti-natalism...
 
Lupa said:
As a small island on the edge of europe, Ireland needs to be able to support itself with a stable source of food. The unpredictability of weather is such that growing enough food to feed the entire country (if everyone became vegan) is a risky option. (We know well here what happens when you rely on one food source and it fails repeatedly.)
Meat and dairy are very stable sources of food....especially on an island that is soon to become even more isolated because of Brexit.
Click to expand...
You need far less resources to feed a population on a vegan diet than a meat one.
 
Lupa said:
You need more land. And decent or at least predictable weather. That....We don't have.
Click to expand...
That's absolute rubbish. You need far less land (and resources) for a vegan diet.

Cutting out meat will help save land
  • 30% of the earth’s entire land surface (70% of all agricultural land) is used for rearing farmed animals.
  • Cattle require approximately 7kg of grain in order to generate 1 kg of beef while pigs require 4kg grain for 1 kg of pork.
  • Livestock production is responsible for 70% of the Amazon deforestation in Latin America, where the rainforest has been cleared to create new pastures.
  • A typical meat eater's diet requires up to 2.5 times the amount of land compared to a vegetarian diet and 5 times that of a vegan diet.
  • A farmer can feed up to 30 people throughout the year with vegetables, fruits, cereals and vegetable fats on one hectare of land. If the same area is used for the production of eggs, milk and/or meat the number of people fed varies from 5-10.
view.image
Find out more in our fully referenced fact sheets
Click to expand...
 
editor said:
Why's that then?
Click to expand...

Because putting all your eggs in one basket (excuse that) is never a good idea.
If meat sources are not used then they will cease to exist...or will be very dwindled in number.
So if weather becomes catastrophic, as we know is a possibility, and regular methods of veg growing fail....then
...what will humans eat?
We can not eliminate meat and dairy fully until such time as there is a method of producing food that will not be influenced by the environment

There should be a balance in my opinion. Less intensively produced meat and dairy ... And more veg options but we are nowhere near 100% vegan
 
Lupa said:
Because putting all your eggs in one basket (excuse that) is never a good idea.
If meat sources are not used then they will cease to exist...or will be very dwindled in number.
So if weather becomes catastrophic, as we know is a possibility, and regular methods of veg growing fail....then
...what will humans eat?
We can not eliminate meat and dairy fully until such time as there is a method of producing food that will not be influenced by the environment

There should be a balance in my opinion. Less intensively produced meat and dairy ... And more veg options but we are nowhere near 100% vegan
Click to expand...
If the weather becomes catastrophic and crops fail how do you think the animals will be fed?
 
editor said:
That's absolute rubbish. You need far less land (and resources) for a vegan diet.
Click to expand...


You need between 5 and 10 acres of arable land per person...to be self sufficient ... That allows for rotation of crops....flooding...damage...etc.
We certainly don't have that in Ireland....even if we cut all forests down.
 
editor said:
If the weather becomes catastrophic and crops fail how do you think the animals will be fed?
Click to expand...

They won't.. until crops grow again. Hopefully there would be fodder saved for them.
Last few years here people were trying to get feed from the UK things were so bad after floods.
It's a very delicate balance
 
Lupa said:
You need between 5 and 10 acres of arable land per person...to be self sufficient ... That allows for rotation of crops....flooding...damage...etc.
We certainly don't have that in Ireland....even if we cut all forests down.
Click to expand...
But to repeat: with a finite amount of land, you can feed far, far more people with a vegan diet than a meat based one.
 
Is Your Country Food Independent?

UK imports 38% of your food.
Ireland imports up to 50%.
That's not good....for the environment and for humans.

My point all along.was about not importing so much. Because the impact of flying and transporting food on the environment is not being discussed here. Almond milk...great alternative but needs to be flown in.

If we are at the stage where we can cut back over production of meat and dairy and increase production of home grown plant based food and production of foods that have high protein but are not reliant on imports then the problem with the environment may well be less.
I don't know.
I just know that cutting out meat and dairy alone is not a great idea.
 
editor said:
But to repeat: with a finite amount of land, you can feed far, far more people with a vegan diet than a meat based one.
Click to expand...

And I will repeat to you that that idea is not always reliable. Look at what happens to countries that rely on plant food when there is long term drought or flooding.
..or diseased plants.

It happened here. And there was no meat. Nothing but turnips and potatoes. The crops failed more than once leaving people starving. People do not live long enough when they are starving to wait for plants to grow. But if the meat and dairy that was being produced had been directed their way they would not have died.
 
Last edited:
Lupa said:
And I will repeat to you that that idea is not always reliable. Look at what happens to countries that rely on plant food when there is long term drought or flooding.
..or diseased plants.

It happened here. And there was no meat. Nothing but turnips and potatoes. The crops failed more than once leaving people starving. People do not live long enough when they are starving to wait for plants to grow. Both of the meat and dairy that was being produced had been directed their way they would not have died.
Click to expand...
But what the hell do you think the animals are fed on? :facepalm:
 
Lupa said:
Is Your Country Food Independent?

UK imports 38% of your food.
Ireland imports up to 50%.
That's not good....for the environment and for humans.

My point all along.was about not importing so much. Because the impact of flying and transporting food on the environment is not being discussed here. Almond milk...great alternative but needs to be flown in.

If we are at the stage where we can cut back over production of meat and dairy and increase production of home grown plant based food and production of foods that have high protein but are not reliant on imports then the problem with the environment may well be less.
I don't know.
I just know that cutting out meat and dairy alone is not a great idea.
Click to expand...
The days of being self-sufficient are well and truly gone. In fact they were never really there in the first place. At least not since industrialisation.
 
Lupa said:
And I will repeat to you that that idea is not always reliable. Look at what happens to countries that rely on plant food when there is long term drought or flooding.
..or diseased plants.

It happened here. And there was no meat. Nothing but turnips and potatoes. The crops failed more than once leaving people starving. People do not live long enough when they are starving to wait for plants to grow. Both of the meat and dairy that was being produced had been directed their way they would not have died.
Click to expand...
Ireland produced enough food to feed itself during the famine iirc it was simply not available to the local population.
 
Also, a vegan diet requires a lot more food to reach a good calorific intake...So more produce...more needs to be grown


I'm not really into looking at one vs the other
I really just want some balance
And I think it should be achievable.
Ireland produces too much dairy and meat for itself. It exports a lot of it. And that could change. We could cut back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

N
The best fried rice
Replies
25
Views
615
Epona
Epona
Infidel Castro
Found a very good rice for ye olde rice maker
Replies
0
Views
374
Infidel Castro
Infidel Castro
S
Overnight Oats
4 5 6 7 8
Replies
231
Views
7K
izz
izz
danny la rouge
Will I die? (Rice edition #2341)
2 3
Replies
69
Views
2K
Sue
S
NoXion
What the hell is this light fitting called, and how easy would it be to get a new one?
Replies
5
Views
324
spitfire
spitfire
Back
Top Bottom