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Megalithic and Prehistoric Sites

Great thread :cool:

Another megalith and monolith lover here, from about 6 year old when a summer holiday took in Stonehenge, Avebury (@ska invita do check it out), Silbury Hill, and West Kennet Longbarrow.

@Voley Regularly kept an outside eye on your twitter the other year with your wonderful pics of Cornish stone circles from your walks.

@brogdale Those Cope books are great - first ever book I bought and still refer to is the excellent Riddles in Stone by Richard Hayman.
 
Here's Rudston monolith, barely 20 mins from my parents place...

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2 years later we went further south to La Vendee (don't bother - nothing like as good as Brittany.) Anyway, I spotted a standing stone on a map, and true to form, dragged my womenfolk off to see it. It isn't an area as well know for stones as Brittany, but they are there.

(my hair: yes, I know. It was a long time ago.)
 

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just been up to doll tor stone circle, its a delightful little stone circle consisting of six standing stones.
there are wonderful views to the west across the valley and hills beyond.
theres also the Andle stone.which is practically next door to doll tor. this is a natural outcrop has several large cup marks on295E1387-ED04-4021-9EB4-2E9C69DC6247.jpegF2FF380C-580D-45A8-B774-76A1F3C40EB0.jpeg71C45B03-6AE3-48B4-8CAC-9156F30BD5DC.jpeg
 
2 years later we went further south to La Vendee (don't bother - nothing like as good as Brittany.) Anyway, I spotted a standing stone on a map, and true to form, dragged my womenfolk off to see it. It isn't an area as well know for stones as Brittany, but they are there.

I passed through the Vendee on my way back from Finisterre a few years ago. Yeah, it's a well shit part of France (we only went to see our grandchildren who were holidaying there). The stones are there but they might not be very spectacular compared to other regions.

These were in a field just up the road from where we camped in a municipal campsite in a town called Le Bernard.

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Dolmens du Salvatore.
 
Another circle I like are the Rollright Stones on the Oxfordshire/Warwickshire border near Chipping Norton (ish). I have my own pics but this is probably a better one as it manages to get the whole circle in better than I did.

It's another place I've been twice and never seen another soul there.

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What do we call the european people of this monolithic age 4500 BC - 2500 BC or so. I thought they were Celts, but the wiki on Celts suggests Celts are a later formation.... ??
 
What do we call the european people of this monolithic age 4500 BC - 2500 BC or so. I thought they were Celts, but the wiki on Celts suggests Celts are a later formation.... ??

Before the Beaker people (2800-1800BC) were the Aegean neolithic farmers who spread across Europe from Greece. Coming over here with their new farming methods etc. They make up 3/4 of British ancestry from around 4000BC so presumably the same can be said for large parts of Europe. Before that were the rather generalised "Western Hunter-Gatherers" but they go back tens of thousands of years from this point.
 
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Before the Beaker people (2800-1800BC) were the Aegean neolithic farmers who spread across Europe from Greece. Coming over here with their new farming methods etc. They make up 3/4 of British ancestry from around 4000BC so presumably the same can be said for large parts of Europe. Before that were the rather generalised "Western Hunter-Gatherers" but they go back tens of thousands of years from this point.
Speaking of which (the old hunter gatherers) I see that archaeologists reckon they've found Europe's oldest known bone tools at Boxgrove:

Europe's earliest bone tools found in Britain

The implements come from the renowned Boxgrove site in West Sussex, which was excavated in the 1980s and 90s.

The bone tools came from a horse that humans butchered at the site for its meat.

Flakes of stone in piles around the animal suggest at least eight individuals were making large flint knives for the job.

Researchers also found evidence that other people were present nearby - perhaps younger or older members of a community - shedding light on the social structure of our ancient relatives.

For anyone interested in the digs at Boxgrove, and how they contributed to our understanding of the earliest ancestors in Britain, I'd recommend this book; found it fascinating:

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Im enjoying some of these lectures on the youtube channel mentioned above

For example this guy has a theory that shadows cast by stones play a significant role on key astronomic dates, which would explain some of the seemingly non-symmetrical positioning of stones, and also differing heights, and relationships between male and female stones in circles (male stones casting shadows on female stones)
Its a good theory, theres clearly some evidence for it. Ultimately its of little consequence to me whether its true or not - i find it fun to think about.
He's invested a huge amount of time over the years into trying to prove its pervasiveness across different circle sites (by going to them and observing shadows on key dates - only to find its cloudy and theres no shadow at all! )

 
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Going back to who were the ancient Brits, have been reading around on it - quite confusing as thinking on it keeps changing.
I've found this timeline on Quora, so written by a random, but I think represents current thinking (I added Cro-Magnon to it)
How people looked is disputed, but Im enjoying the scientific DNA modelling speculation so sticking in some pictures
Also have been reading up about the "Celtic" wave of migration and how its basically disowned as a major genetic event (as mentioned above), lots of articles out there on it, such as Myths of British ancestry - suggesting Iberia and particularly Basque area dominant right up to Roman invasion with a small mix of northern europeans occuring in pre-Roman times

Cro-Magnon
30,000BC>>>>

Cro-Magnon man, "a group of homo-sapiens who succeeded the Neanderthals in Europe. This representation was based on a skull that was found in France, but Cro-Magnons also lived in England from about 30,000 to 10,000 years ago. The work of Nilsson indicates that he had a very dark complexion and was darker than many modern North Africans. "

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Ice Age Hunter-Gatherers
10,000BC>>>>

During the last Ice Age, about 11–12,000 years ago, when the ice was receding and sea levels were lower, there was a land bridge that was exposed that connected Britain with mainland Europe. The Hunter-gatherers crossed this bridge and started what would be the first continuous settlement of the British Isles.

These people are the ancestors to a skeleton found in Cheddar Gorge in Somerset, England, named Cheddar Man. These people had dark-brown/black skin, blue/green/hazel eyes and were dark haired. 10% of British ancestry can be traced to Cheddar Man. The biggest cluster of this ancient DNA can be found in Northern Wales, although there have been links in Somerset as well, amongst people local to where Cheddar man was found.

" Cheddar Man has the genetic markers of skin pigmentation usually associated with sub-Saharan Africa. "
or maybe didnt

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First Wave of Migrants - "Iberian Farmers" - (most responsible for megalithic structures on this thread if I've understood it right)
4,000BC>>>


About 6,000 years ago, a new wave of migrants, who were mostly farmers, came to Britain from the Mediterranean (These peoples ancestors came from what is today Turkey). They were roughly brown skinned, brown eyed and had dark hair.

At this point, Britain was now an Island, as the land bridge had been submerged by partially by rising sea levels, but also due to a tsunami, caused by underwater landslides near Norway. The tsunami hit the East coasts of what is now Scotland and England.

The incoming migrant population was larger than native population, and they bought new technologies to Britain. Their farming lifestyles are known because samples of sediment showing preserved pollen, and in areas they farmed, it can be seen where they cut or chopped plants and trees and replaced them with crops like wheat, simply by seeing in change in pollen.

How the incomers communicated or interacted with the original inhabitants is not known, but eventually the incoming Iberian population would largely replace the original inhabitants, although considering the native population was much smaller than the new arrivals and 10% of original inhabitants DNA still remains a part of British ancestry then it is very likely genocide wasn't the cause. I assume the reason is probably disease and that the original population, at first, isolated themselves, then eventually over time became integrated with the new arrivals. Either way, the new arrivals began a new era for Britain; the Neolithic Period.

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Second Wave; The Beaker People
2,400ishBC>>>


About 4,400 years ago, Britain would again get a new wave of migrants, referred to as the Beaker People, known for their use of pottery, with many of their burials having included pots as well. The Beakers came from Continental Europe (Germany, Switzerland, etc), and their ancestors were from Eurasia. They were much lighter coloured than the previous migrants to Britain, lighter skin colour, eye and hair colour as well.

Ironically just like the Iberian migrants before them, the beaker people, after a few centuries after they arrived, replaced the British gene pool by 90%. Again, like the preceding migrants, instead of it being genocide or fighting, the most likely reason was diseases which were devastating for those who had been isolated for almost 2000 years. They too bought new technologies to Britain and it ended the Neolithic Period, and started the Early Bronze Age. Also, most people in the British Isles are descended from these migrants.

(According to this though this person from the Beaker era at least " had a more Mediterranean complexion [than expected], and was lactose intolerant. ") - with her parents originating from the Netherlands
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Bronze Age: Economic Trade with Europe
2500BC - 800BC

The Bronze Age saw the increase in trade with Europe. Resources and minerals were extracted; Bronze, Copper, Tin, even Gold, were used to make swords, jewellery and other stylish goods to trade overseas. This seemed to have continued til the Iron Age.

Other than the Beakers, there does not seem any major migrations or invasions.

Iron Age; The ‘Insular Celtic’ Languages
800BC - 43AD

The significant use of Iron tools bought about a period of time we know as the Iron Age. The peoples, in this time, in the British Isles starting living in tribal societies and adopted a common language that is referred to as Brittonic. This period of time saw the increase in use of animal husbandry and a pagan belief system across Britain. Because of increasingly densely populated areas in the South, many tribes came into conflict with each other.

There seems to have been some influx of people from the continent, such as the Belgae in Southern Britain, possibly the Atrebates; a tribe who shared a similar name to a tribe in Gaul, and possibly Iberian farmers into Western Britain, although that is disputed.

Early Iron Age saw a decline of economic trade with Europe, although imports were still coming into Britain. Trade picked up again Mid-Late Iron Age, it is believed that Gauls may have asked for aid from Britain in their fight against Rome. When Gaul was conquered, there was, once again, an increase in trade between South-Eastern Britain and the Continent. At this point, Britain was known to traders as far south as Greece and Mediterranean for being rich in resources.

The Iron Age came to an end with the Roman Invasion of Britain.

So basically you have:

  • Ice Age Hunter-Gatherers
  • Mediterranean Farmers
  • Central European Beaker People
  • Small Gallic-Germanic Celtic influx
  • Romans (Most likely used Germanic peoples as soldiers, so difficult to know if the Romans added to the British Gene pool)
  • Anglo-Saxons in SE Britain, and Gaels in West Caledonia and some coastal parts of Wales.
  • Danish Vikings in England (Came from the same region as the Anglo-Saxons, so difficult to know how much the Anglo-Saxon contribution to the English gene pool is actually due to the Anglo-Saxons, and how much is due to the Danes). Norwegian Vikings in Northern Scotland (Because the Norwegians invaded the Isles, where the population remains limited and being less exposed to immigration, means their contribution to the local gene pool is more recognisable).
  • Normans (Including some Breton followers) in Southern Britain (Conquest of England in 1066, Subjugation of Wales).
 
just been up to doll tor stone circle, its a delightful little stone circle consisting of six standing stones.
there are wonderful views to the west across the valley and hills beyond.
I hear it was vandalised again this year, people moving stones to sit on :mad:
I did some work for a local archaeological unit in about 1993/4 fixing it the last time it happened. Some pagans had decided to move some of the stones about and put their own 'votive offerings' in the holes they dug. We had to excavate several and put them back where they had been.
 
Another circle I like are the Rollright Stones on the Oxfordshire/Warwickshire border near Chipping Norton (ish). I have my own pics but this is probably a better one as it manages to get the whole circle in better than I did.

It's another place I've been twice and never seen another soul there.

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Went there many moons ago on a really misty morning. We were in the centre and the mist was exactly on the boundary of the stone circle. Well atmospheric.
 
I hear it was vandalised again this year, people moving stones to sit on :mad:
I did some work for a local archaeological unit in about 1993/4 fixing it the last time it happened. Some pagans had decided to move some of the stones about and put their own 'votive offerings' in the holes they dug. We had to excavate several and put them back where they had been.
Been going up there for over 30 years. thats the reason i went up to see the mess. not been up to the nine ladies or doll tor for some time.
sounds like loads of morons on the moors building fires moving stones, thankfully looked like some one has sorted the mess.
reminds me of a summer solstice night at the nine ladies 1992. another moron driving his land rover in to the king stone.
 
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