Massive rises in unemployment: Do we need to talk about Eva?

[SpineyNorman]

Look, I'm sorry for that and I'm sorry that I offended you. I think this issue of racism if probably a red herring to be honest. We disagree about facts at the end of the day.

To make a point about racism, I don't think it makes sense to divide up the world into people who are racist and people who aren't racist. Racism is pretty insidious and I would acknowledge that sometimes I have racist thoughts, attitudes or behaviours as do most people probably. I would have thought that 20 years of being an active antiracist would have made you well aware of that. But that's a red herring and I'm sorry I offended you.

Apology accepted, and I'm sorry I called you a cunt I agree that the OP was needlessly provocative and that treelover often does present these issues in a very divisive "them and us" way and we need to be careful about how this is presented. But there's an issue here that needs to be addressed.

 

[treelover]

'Look, I'm sorry for that and I'm sorry that I offended you. I think this issue of racism if probably a red herring to be honest. We disagree about facts at the end of the day.'

well why use it then, it is too often sprayed around when the person is nothing of the sort, it also degrades what racism actually is...

oh, and take the hairshirt off...

 

[SpineyNorman]

I often disagree with treelover but he's bang on the money with the above post.

 

[teuchter]

And how do we convince the government to increase the minimum wage?

It seems marginally more feasible than convincing everyone, including temporary workers from overseas, to join unions.

I reckon that a larger proportion of people adversely affected by low pay would be inclined to vote for an increase in the minimum wage, than would be persuaded to join a union.

And there is the precedent of the minimum wage already having been introduced by a government voted in with such a move included in their manifesto.

 

[frogwoman]

It seems marginally more feasible than convincing everyone, including temporary workers from overseas, to join unions.

I reckon that a larger proportion of people adversely affected by low pay would be inclined to vote for an increase in the minimum wage, than would be persuaded to join a union.

And there is the precedent of the minimum wage already having been introduced by a government voted in with such a move included in their manifesto.

It's the same thing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

You can always find ways and means of getting around legislation like the minimum wage - the example of making stupidly high deductions for "accommodation" is a classic. It's far, far harder to get around a strong union.

I tend to agree that the answer lies in organising migrant (in fact all) workers. But how do we go about doing so and is there anything else we could do? If it was properly enforced I agree that a decent minimum wage would solve a lot of the problems, but if, say, Labour could be persuaded that this was a big enough vote winner for them to put it in their manifesto, they'd do the same as they did when they introduced the minimum wage - make no real effort to ensure it's properly enforced and do nothing to stop people making the kind of deductions from wages for accommodation etc. I mentioned above. In fact it could well make unemployment worse - a higher minimum wage that's not properly enforced would increase the incentive to employ cheaper, more easily exploited labour, since the difference between their rate of pay and that of anyone else would be even higher.

In the unlikely event of a socialist/left government coming to power then yes, this would be an excellent short-term fix. But the reality is that if any of the current mainstream parties did this they wouldn't enforce it properly - their rich friends would apply sufficient pressure to make sure of that.

 

[frogwoman]

You wouldn't even have things like the minimum wages without unions.

 

[SpineyNorman]

We probably wouldn't even have the vote.

 

[frogwoman]

and if these cunts (the ruling class) get their way then there may come a day when we dont have it again.

 

[teuchter]

You can always find ways and means of getting around legislation like the minimum wage - the example of making stupidly high deductions for "accommodation" is a classic. It's far, far harder to get around a strong union.

So, how do you propose that "strong unions" are formed, that would protect everyone in jobs with a pressure for low wages?

Your proposition needs to be at least as realistic as the suggestion that a party should seek votes based on a commitment to an increased minimum wage with stronger enforcement.

 

[frogwoman]

"you" dont need to propose anything, it will happen naturally as people learn through struggle, through the attacks on their/others conditions, etc. Besides thousands of people are joining unions, i'd have thought the larger the percentage of people unionised gets, the more potent a force the unions can be.

 

[SpineyNorman]

So, how do you propose that "strong unions" are formed, that would protect everyone in jobs with a pressure for low wages?

I don't know, that's the question I'm asking.

Your proposition needs to be at least as realistic as the suggestion that a party should seek votes based on a commitment to an increased minimum wage with stronger enforcement.

The last three words are key - getting any of the three main parties to agree to increase the minimum wage, and to actually enforce it, is about as realistic as the SPGB.

 

[teuchter]

"you" dont need to propose anything, it will happen naturally as people learn through struggle, through the attacks on their/others conditions, etc.

That seems rather optimistic.

 

[frogwoman]

That seems rather optimistic.

Why does it seem optimistic, that's what's happening up and down the country tbh, right now

 

[teuchter]

Why does it seem optimistic, that's what's happening up and down the country tbh, right now

In small pockets, of people who happen to be in jobs where for whatever reason there is already union presence. Do you really think things are going to improve through this mechanism for most people in the kinds of jobs where immigrants are supposedly putting a downward pressure on already low wages?

 

[frogwoman]

In small pockets, of people who happen to be in jobs where for whatever reason there is already union presence. Do you really think things are going to improve through this mechanism for most people in the kinds of jobs where immigrants are supposedly putting a downward pressure on already low wages?

well for example where i live there was a strike by hospital cleaners, six months before the strike started nobody was in a union, lots of foreign workers etc, by the end they all were, and all voted to strike.

 

[frogwoman]

In small pockets, of people who happen to be in jobs where for whatever reason there is already union presence. Do you really think things are going to improve through this mechanism for most people in the kinds of jobs where immigrants are supposedly putting a downward pressure on already low wages?

61% of people (give or take) support the strike, that's 61% of people plus probably another 25% who could be persuaded to strike if things got bad ennough that it directly affected them, or if they understood a bit more about how unions work. i agree that unions have been abysmal at times at promoting themsleves in the private sector, but i am actually pretty optimistic tbh.

 

[teuchter]

61% of people (give or take) support the strike, that's 61% of people plus probably another 25% who could be persuaded to strike if things got bad ennough that it directly affected them, or if they understood a bit more about how unions work. i agree that unions have been abysmal at times at promoting themsleves in the private sector, but i am actually pretty optimistic tbh.

Well it seems pretty optimistic to me. Time will tell I suppose.

 

[teuchter]

Well it seems pretty optimistic to me. Time will tell I suppose.

All this depends on people working in places where unions are officially recognised, does it not? What's going to make more employers recognise unions?

 

[frogwoman]

More people joining them

 

[ViolentPanda]

You wouldn't even have things like the minimum wages without unions.

We'd probably still have fucking company stores without unions, as opposed to the Co-op.

 

[Gmart]

It's a period of adjustment - the globalised world has plugged itself in, and the currency differentials between the relatively more productive areas to the relatively unproductive areas are kicking in - they will die down only after the equilibrium between productive and unproductive areas of people occurs

It doesn't necessarily even matter if 'they' can speak English - they can work and want to work, and why shouldn't they?

Wages and prices are on a downward trend due to competition and a depressed western economy. Unions could be strengthened, but are divided and so will not amount to much. They could unify so that real solutions can be discussed - but the true problem is that the UK is a diminishing power which has oppressed its population for a long time and should be moving towards a more modern system rather than pretending that it has any answers for the globalised world it finds itself in.

You cannot stop the movement of labour, any more than you can restrict the movement of money. Any barriers will just prolong the agony, while minimum wage legislation is just a blunt tool and is, as has been mentioned, very easy to bypass, and might in fact make things worse.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And what might this more modern system be? Am I going to regret asking that question?

 

[Gmart]

And what might this more modern system be? Am I going to regret asking that question?

There has to be an agreement on shared principles, which necessitates a discussion on what these might be. I would suggest being guided by rationality and logic, avoiding privilege, freedom of expression/conscience guiding the system through best practice - agreed rights and wrongs for a society etc. What duties can be imposed on others?
For unemployment one has to ask how to stimulate an economy to employ more people. Is it even possible to do so? Certainly a Keynesian stimulus would work, and is used by other countries to direct resources (for example the German investment in 'green' power), but it is expensive.
In this post globalised world, people cannot be forced to do anything. They can freely enter into a contract, discuss, cooperate or be apathetic, that has to be up to the individual - thus individual rights.

 

[DotCommunist]

he's banging on about the social contract again?

 

[SpineyNorman]

And how do you propose we arrive at your "solution" then Gmart? Ask the powers that be really nicely?

"In this globalised world" lol hasn't the world always been global?

 

[Gmart]

And how do you propose we arrive at your "solution" then Gmart? Ask the powers that be really nicely?

"In this globalised world" lol hasn't the world always been global?

While opinion is divided then we will default ourselves into being fodder for capitalism. Only through cooperation can any progress be made.
Inevitably I am using the word globalised to refer to the march of communications which has changed the world in the last fifty years, as well as the unification of markets. But then you knew that anyway...

 

[ViolentPanda]

How to kill a thread, in one easy lesson....

 

[SpineyNorman]

And what might this more modern system be? Am I going to regret asking that question?

That's a yes then

While opinion is divided then we will default ourselves into being fodder for capitalism. Only through cooperation can any progress be made.
Inevitably I am using the word globalised to refer to the march of communications which has changed the world in the last fifty years, as well as the unification of markets. But then you knew that anyway...

You're very boring. Please go away.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's a yes then

You're very boring. Please go away.

You should be so lucky, Norm!