Massive rises in unemployment: Do we need to talk about Eva?

[SpineyNorman]

you mean 'pie in the sky' then, sorry utopias that way, not happy with your vindictive comments either, sad....

I think these issues should be discussed, I get fed up of some people on the left immediately assuming that anyone questioning the merits of economic immigration is a racist or whatever. But when you start a thread with a deliberately provocative title with a stereotypical "jonnie foreigner" name in it, don't be surprised when people bite. In fact I think you did it on purpose so you could whine and play the victim when called on it.

Of course foreign labour is used to drive down wages. But what's the answer? I suspect that, were we to close the borders so the cheap labour couldn't come to them, many of these companies would go to where the cheap labour is, and then we'd be in an even worse situation. But we on the left do ourselves no favours by pretending, as some do, that migrant labour somehow magically has either no effect, or only a positive effect, on wages and employment prospects.

And there are ways and means of effectively paying migrant workers less than the minimum wage, and doing so legally - I've seen it with my own eyes. Often the employer also provides accommodation, the cost of which is taken out of the wages. They then charge something daft like 2/3 of the weekly wage for a bed in a shared room.

I think we need an alternative answer to "under socialism it wouldn't matter" - we need to offer something in the here and now, something that doesn't discriminate against foreign workers but also protects British workers. I don't know what that answer is unfortunately

And to those suggesting it doesn't matter cos "there are already too many McJobs" - fuck off. Tell that to someone for whom a "McJob" is the only option. Yes, they're shit - but they're all some people have.

 

[Blagsta]

Yes, they're prepared to work for a low wage because they don't want to come all the way to Britain and be unable to get work. As for your stuff about building solidarity with foreign workers for a better wage, do you want the whole of Europe to go bankrupt, or for unemployment to go even higher? Because that's what would happen if wages were forced up in a recession. Though I do think that everyone should have the right to join a trade union.

You're kidding, right? What makes you think there is no money anywhere?

 

[Fruitloop]

It's not a blind spot. It's self-evident. The left doesn't have a blind spot to the fact that water is wet just because they don't talk about it all the time.

For the current (relatively meagre, compared to the urgency of the situation) w/c reaction to the recent sally-forth of the ruling class and capital to get side-tracked into yet another fruitless debate about immigration would be the worst possible outcome IMO.

 

[LLETSA]

I said, as a general proposition, they speak poorer English than their African counterparts. Plus, Englsih people tend to meet only those who, surprisingly enough, speak reasonable English - those are the ones you meet for obv. reasons. The rest you don't.

And, fwiw, I'm still talking in general about the unskilled/youth market as, I thought, was the OP. Like all markets, it is segmented.

Of course you don't meet only those who speak English. If you live close to an area where (say) lots of young Poles have settled, you encounter the ones who speak good English and those who don't, if only in the queue at the supermarket or on the bus (sometimes they're the checkout assistants and drivers.) You can go in the Polish shops that have opened up.

And as already pointed out, when it comes to east European labour the unskilled labour market is to a large part populated by educated professionals.

 

[LLETSA]

By "we" I mean people on the left, trade unionists etc.

So how are people on the left and trade unionists going to unionise those in workplaces where unions are not recognised and the workers are keeping their heads down or don't even see the need for a union?

 

[Blagsta]

So how are people on the left and trade unionists going to unionise those in workplaces where unions are not recognised and the workers are keeping their heads down or don't even see the need for a union?

Well I believe the IWW have had some success in unionising immigrant labour in london.

 

[LLETSA]

Well I believe the IWW have had some success in unionising immigrant labour in london.

Maybe, but the rest of the country isn't London and nor can the IWW (or the relatively tiny number of 'left' activists as a whole) try and unionise everybody everywhere. And what about those workplaces where anybody doing it gets told to fuck off by either the employers, the workers or both?

 

[London_Calling]

And as already pointed out, when it comes to east European labour,the unskilled labour market is to a large part populated by educated professionals.

No it isn't.

 

[LLETSA]

No it isn't.

Stick to your fantasy world then.

 

[Pickman's model]

So how are people on the left and trade unionists going to unionise those in workplaces where unions are not recognised and the workers are keeping their heads down or don't even see the need for a union?

you identify people on the left, and people in trade unions. how are the former lot, people on the left outside trade unions, going to unionise un-unionised workplaces? what makes you think trade unionists don't already go out and try to get un-unionised workplaces unionised? have you in fact given any thought to your post at all?

 

[Pickman's model]

You're kidding, right? What makes you think there is no money anywhere?

no money here

 

[LLETSA]

you identify people on the left, and people in trade unions. how are the former lot, people on the left outside trade unions, going to unionise un-unionised workplaces? what makes you think trade unionists don't already go out and try to get un-unionised workplaces unionised? have you in fact given any thought to your post at all?

I haven't said they don't. But It would be more relevant to, once again, ask why people think there are enough dedicated activists to go around trying to unionise the many, many workplaces where unions are not recognised, and enough people within them prepared to stick their necks out and face down hostile employers and risk losing their jobs.

As I said, these notions are a comfort blanket for people on messageboards discussing subjects like this.

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't said they don't. But It would be more relevant to, once again, ask why people think there are enough dedicated activists to go around trying to unionise the many, many workplaces where unions are not recognised, and enough people within them prepared to stick their necks out and face down hostile employers and risk losing their jobs.

As I said, these notions are a comfort blanket for people on messageboards discussing subjects like this.

once again you change something from an issue to a specific, in this case from 'are people doing this' to 'not enough people are doing this'. i would be interested to read any positive suggestions you might have about how the lack of people you suggest aren't out there might be changed.

 

[LLETSA]

once again you change something from an issue to a specific, in this case from 'are people doing this' to 'not enough people are doing this'. i would be interested to read any positive suggestions you might have about how the lack of people you suggest aren't out there might be changed.

I haven't changed anything. I never said anywhere that nobody's unionising workplaces, but have pointed out all along that the numbers prepared to do it are small. As usual you are looking for some irrelevancies to divert a thread with.

Like you and everybody else who's contributed so far, I haven't got any suggestions as to how this can be changed. It probably can't. Not my fault.

 

[London_Calling]

Stick to your fantasy world then.

The one I live and work in?

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't changed anything. I never said anywhere that nobody's unionising workplaces, but have pointed out all along that the numbers prepared to do it are small. As usual you are looking for some irrelevancies to divert a thread with.

Like you and everybody else who's contributed so far, I haven't got any suggestions as to how this can be changed. It probably can't. Not my fault.

it's strange how few times you identify means by which the problems you highlight can be resolved.

 

[LLETSA]

it's strange how few times you identify means by which the problems you highlight can be resolved.

What do you want me to do? Make the fucking answers up?

 

[Fruitloop]

Is unionising workplaces the answer anyway. In a sense you are making a concrete proposal, in that if the problem is that not enough people are trying to unionise workplaces then doing so must presumably be a part of the solution.

 

[LLETSA]

Is unionising workplaces the answer anyway. In a sense you are making a concrete proposal, in that if the problem is that not enough people are trying to unionise workplaces then doing so must presumably be a part of the solution.

That's a staement of the obvious but makes no difference to the situation I've described.

 

[Fruitloop]

What situation?

 

[LLETSA]

What situation?

Oh never mind.

 

[Pickman's model]

What do you want me to do? Make the fucking answers up?

why not? it would be more entertaining than your usual droning miserabilism.

 

[LLETSA]

why not? it would be more entertaining than your usual droning miserabilism.

Hey great answer Phil.

 

[treelover]

I think these issues should be discussed, I get fed up of some people on the left immediately assuming that anyone questioning the merits of economic immigration is a racist or whatever. But when you start a thread with a deliberately provocative title with a stereotypical "jonnie foreigner" name in it, don't be surprised when people bite. In fact I think you did it on purpose so you could whine and play the victim when called on it.

Of course foreign labour is used to drive down wages. But what's the answer? I suspect that, were we to close the borders so the cheap labour couldn't come to them, many of these companies would go to where the cheap labour is, and then we'd be in an even worse situation. But we on the left do ourselves no favours by pretending, as some do, that migrant labour somehow magically has either no effect, or only a positive effect, on wages and employment prospects.

And there are ways and means of effectively paying migrant workers less than the minimum wage, and doing so legally - I've seen it with my own eyes. Often the employer also provides accommodation, the cost of which is taken out of the wages. They then charge something daft like 2/3 of the weekly wage for a bed in a shared room.

I think we need an alternative answer to "under socialism it wouldn't matter" - we need to offer something in the here and now, something that doesn't discriminate against foreign workers but also protects British workers. I don't know what that answer is unfortunately

And to those suggesting it doesn't matter cos "there are already too many McJobs" - fuck off. Tell that to someone for whom a "McJob" is the only option. Yes, they're shit - but they're all some people have.

A considered and thoughtful reply, though way off on the OP title, I did it because it sounded good and clever wordplay, I don't blame Eva or anyone else for trying new opportunities, which i know there parents never had, in fact we were sworn enemies with them in the Warsaw Pact, once literally had a east german in my sights of my FN rifle, now I number many as my friends..

 

[rover07]

a considered and thoughtful reply, as for the OP title, I did it because it sounded good and clever wordplay, I don't blame Eva or anyone else for trying new opportunities, which i know there parents never had, in fact we were sworn enemies with them in the Warsaw Pact, once literally had a east german in my sights of my FN rifle, now I number many as my friends..

Speak for yourself. They were never my enemies.

Still aren't. Unlike you.

 

[treelover]

It's not a blind spot. It's self-evident. The left doesn't have a blind spot to the fact that water is wet just because they don't talk about it all the time.

For the current (relatively meagre, compared to the urgency of the situation) w/c reaction to the recent sally-forth of the ruling class and capital to get side-tracked into yet another fruitless debate about immigration would be the worst possible outcome IMO.

Its a discussion on a small bulletin board ffs, not a motion to the TUC!

 

[Fruitloop]

Yeah but if it's a counterproductive tactic then why discuss it at all? Wouldn't it be better to discuss things that might actually help?

 

[Wolveryeti]

How strange that there is such difficulty in finding good evidence that immigration from Eastern Europe is contributing to the unemployment problem. See for instance: http://www.ces.ed.ac.uk/PDF Files/IMP_WP1.pdf

Several published papers (eg Dustmann et al, 2005), examined the impact of a proportion of migrants who arrived in a region before 2000 on the employment and wages of native- born Britons with different skill levels and found little evidence of a negative effect of immigration on native workers’ outcomes. Similarly, Blanchflower et al (2007) conducted a thorough review of existing research on the impact of post 2004 immigrants on the UK labour market, and concluded that this research is unable to demonstrate a negative impact of immigration from A8 countries on the UK labour market. Gilpin et al (2006) recently conducted a careful econometric analysis of the impact of the new A8 migrants on the employment opportunities of non-migrant workers and found no statistical evidence which supports the view that the inflow of A8 migrants is contributing to the rise of unemployment in the UK (2006, p.49).

 

[London_Calling]

Anything from the last 5 years?

 

[shagnasty]

Todays figures hardly featured in the headline being as virgin bought northern rock ,how fortunate lol